Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This presentation refers to an earlier posted introduction of Lugers I found in Israel. If you want to know more about the background, the history or the way these Luger found their way into the country of Israel, please read the corresponding chapter IL-5 in the thread: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4947

Note: on 06/29/2005 the following attributions of fellow collectors have been added to this post, in order to keep it 'up to date':
1.2.1 (from Sauerfan): Not Stoeger, but DWM patented two of the brands
1.6.1 (from Jan C Still): Correspondance about the 'genuine' stamp


Three line Stoeger marked Lugers, found in Israel

1. The American side of the story


1.1 Stoeger Story (1922 - 1933)
The Firm of A.F. Stoeger Inc. (509 Fifth Avenue, NYC), became the sole importer of DWM Lugers in the U.S.A. as from March 13th 1922. This fact, confirmed by a letter of DWM of the same date, was the result of a strategic move of owner Alexander F. Stoeger.

During WWI the business of DWM agent Hans Tauscher was seized due to an investigation of the Attorney General, and on January 11th 1922 the Alien Property Custodian granted a license to Hugo. J. Panzer & Co. Inc.( 9 John Street NYC), to manufacture or sell the Luger pistol. It is not known if Panzer reacted accordingly and quickly towards DWM in Germany.

Fact is however that Stoeger ordered 2,500 Lugers on March 7th 1922 directly at DWM. DWM confirmed the exclusivity just 6 days later. Such an important order must have been very tempting for the Germans. Undoubtedly Panzer reacted furiously, and in August 1922 an agreement was made between the two competitors. Panzer would receive up to 50% of all Lugers, imported by Stoeger, who would act as sole importer.

This fragile agreement lasted only 19 months - the agreement of 1922 was abrogated March 24th 1924, and all USA rights formerly held by Panzer were assigned to Stoeger. It is impossible to suggest a reason for the early rupture of this ‘joint venture’ without speculation. I dare to suggest to the reader that Panzer did not have enough selling capacity to take over a substantial number of Lugers from Stoeger. Please remember that 2,500 pistols were ordered by Stoeger in 1922.

1.2. Exclusive and patented rights
(from the article in Arms Gazette November 1979 by C.L. Conrad & Ralph E. Shattuck)
Having the U.S.A. market for DWM made Lugers now totally under control, Stoeger took another strategic decision. In three steps the firm registered in the U.S.A. the key brand names of the product she successfully distributed:
- DWM - May 20 1924
- Parabellum - July 22 1924
- Luger - October 1929

Everyone who has been involved with International trade knows that the principal proprietor of the brand names of a certain product (in this case DWM) will not allow an agent to register the brand(s) in his native country on his (the clients) name. This is like an act of total surrender to a partner, whereas the normal relation between producer and distributor is at stake. We know that significant quantities of Commercial DWM Lugers came into the U.S.A. during 1922 - 1929. It is more than pure speculation when I suggest, that DWM (needing export and currency as the main manner to survive) decided to look only to the actual business, and not too much to the future. Furthermore, the fact that Stoeger owned since 1924 the official U.S.A. issued license, might have influenced the decision of DWM to remain passive in this brand matter.

1.2.1 (from Sauerfan) Not Stoeger but DWM patented two brands
a. Trademark No. 191,368 "DWM" filed January 28, 1924 by D.W.M. Arms & Ammunition Corporation, New York, N.Y. for the good "Pistols, Rifles, and Ammunition. Published in the Official Gazette March 11, 1924, page 266.

b. Trademark No. 191,369 "Parabellum" filed January 28, 1924 by D.W.M. Arms & Ammunition Corporation, New York, N.Y. for the good "Pistols, Rifles, and Ammunition. Published in the Official Gazette May 06, 1924, page 28.

c. Trademark No.290,722 "LUGER", filed Oct. 05, 1929 by A. F. Stoeger, Inc., New York, N. Y. for the goods "Shotguns, Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles and Parts thereof". Published in the Official Gazette on February 11, 1930, page 260.

"So, the DWM and Parabellum trademarks were owned by DWM, while Stoeger had the Luger trademark. Personally, I think, DWM had no objections against Stoeger's Luger trademark, because at that time nobody here in Germany was aware of the fact, that Luger was the inventor of this pistol. And nobody called this pistol a "Luger", but only "Pistole 08" or "Parabellum". It might well be, that Stoeger's marketing activities are the reason why everybody in the US is calling this pistol a Luger. Maybe, Stoeger's trademark made a development like other trademarks: first, it was just a brand name for a certain product. Later, it developed to be a generic name – like "Aspirin", what was/is (at least in Germany) a trademark of Bayer AG for this wonderful head ache pill……"


1.3. Estimated quantities of two lines Stoeger Lugers
Still’s Weimar Lugers (page 13, Table 1a.):
Produced 1919 – 1921 (five digit DWM Lugers)
500 Stoeger two lines, including some American Eagles, SN range 76515 - 89836
1,800 Lugers with Safe and Loaded likely imported by Stoeger in 1922, SN range 89734 – 91511
Produced 1921 - 1928 . (Alphabet DWM Lugers)
100 Stoeger two lines with American Eagle, suffixes n, p and q
100 Stoeger two lines –
Produced 1929 – 1930 (29 DWM Lugers)
200 Stoeger two lines with American Eagle, suffixes t and u.


1.3.1 C.L. Conrad & Ralph Shattuck in Arms Gazette November 1979
Please keep in mind this article was written 26 years ago, terms like ‘1923 Safe/Loaded’ evaluated since that time.
"... why are there so few Stoeger marked Lugers. It is, of course, easy enough to ascribe the paucity of such Lugers to the influx of inexpensive war surplus or reconditioned Parabellum's before the autumn of 1929 and the great depression thereafter. Although these two factors were undoubtedly quite significant, they do not furnish a completely satisfactory explanation. To see that this is so, consider the Luger variation known as the 1923 Safe/Loaded. Collectors generally agree that this variation was intended for the American market, and was fabricated by DWM. It is a matter of common experience that the 1923 Safe Loaded variation is much more frequently encountered than a Luger marked A.F. Stoeger. Did the firm of Stoeger actually import the 1923 Safe/Loaded? If, on the one hand, the answer is yes, why are these Lugers not generally marked with the Stoeger name or at the very least, the American Eagle as requested in 1922? If, on the other hand the answer is no, why did DWM apparently circumvent the exclusive franchise granted to the Stoeger firm? ...".


1.4 Stoeger Catalogues (1928 - 1948 # 8 - # 39)
Learning by reading is the number one rule for collectors. Therefore I present here five pages, taken from different catalogues of A.F. Stoeger. It is interesting to notice how this firm developed her marketing policy for the Luger pistol. I also present a copy of two pages wherein competitors of Stoeger offer Lugers to their clients.
Note: I used a rather fine resolution for the images. I did it on purpose, as there are many very small characters, which can be read now. I offer my apologies to readers without a broadband connection.

1.4.1 Stoeger Catalogue 1928 (# 8)
Please pay attention to the declaration in the header of this page: "We are the sole authorized importer for the U.S.A. of the Genuine Mauser and Luger arms and ammunition". The word genuine is already clearly present in the marketing message.
The pictured Luger bears no Stoeger markings. The price for the regular model (7.65mm - 3 3/4" barrel) is $ 50.00.

Download Attachment: Stoeger8pf.jpg
209.64 KB

1.4.2 Von Lengerke & Detmold Catalogue (1926)
Von Lengerke & Detmold Inc., 349 Madison Ave N.Y.C. offers this regular model (7.65mm - 3 5/8" barrel) for $ 25.00. Were these Lugers left over from the Panzer / Stoeger joint venture (1922 - 1924)? Anyway, it must have been an annoyance to Stoeger! The firm Von Lengerke & Detmold was taken over by Ambercombie & Fitch in 1928. See also under 1.4.4.

Download Attachment: vonLengDet26.jpg
255.85 KB

1.4.3 Stoeger Catalogue 1931 (# 16)
Pay attention to the text under the header: ' Look for the name "Stoeger" '. Here Stoeger warns the reader, that his Luger is preferable above the 'cheap post-war models'... Here the pictured Luger shows the three line Stoeger marking on the right side of the receiver and the frame. The word 'Germany' as seen on the live Stoeger Lugers of this series, is not shown in the picture. The price of the regular model is $ 50.00.
The quality of the paper, used for this catalogue is thin and very mediocre. We are right in the middle of the crisis here...

Download Attachment: Stoeger16.jpg
200.34 KB


1.4.4. Stoeger Catalogue # 20 (1933)
No picture here, because page 90 is in all aspects a copy of page 130 of catalogue 1931 (# 16). The quality of the paper is much better now...
No picture either of page 112 of the 1933 catalogue of Abercromie & Fitch. Co. (this firm took over von Lengerke & Detmold in 1928), the regular Luger is offered here for $ 50.00. Peace in pricing on the Luger front?
No, because the firm of Hudson (52 Warren Street NYC) advertised in her ‘New 1934 Catalogue - Fall edition’: page 11, the ‘Genuine Luger Automatic’ in two ‘Grades’ – for $ 19.75 to $ 34.85. (See picture). Note the remark at the Grade No. 1 Luger; 6” barrel, some with grip safety.

Download Attachment: Hudson1934.jpg
285.19 KB


1.4.5. Stoeger Catalogue # 25 (1936)
A totally new Luger approach occurs. New pictures, partly new text, and for sure new prices... Stoeger explains that for the first time since 'before the war' the 9mm Lugers are back, now in production by Mauser, who took over all tools from DWM.

Look also to the second page (89) where, for the first time, Stoeger offers 'Reconditioned Lugers'. While the regular Stoeger marked Lugers went up from $ 50.00 to $ 100.00, from now on the client can order reconditioned Lugers from $ 19.50 to $ 29.50, depending on the Grade ordered.

This kind of marketing is called 'dumping' - a move which can only be explained if Stoeger had a lot of stock of the 1922 style Lugers, or if Stoeger was confronted with parallel import by competitors. The word 'reconditioned' makes one think these were Lugers 'used before'. Were they came from is not clear, but as Hudson offered them already in 1934, there must have been quite a quantity of these ‘refurbished’ Lugers on the market.

Download Attachment: Stoeger25-1.jpg
268.3 KB

Download Attachment: Stoeger25-2.jpg
224.93 KB


1.4.6 Stoeger Catalogue # 29 (1938)
Same lay out, same text and pricing for the Stoeger marked Lugers (page 102), but on page 103 the pricing for the 'Reconditioned Lugers' is up marked with some 35 to 50%. I present a copy of that page only.

Download Attachment: Stoeger29-2.jpg
261.49 KB

1.4.7 Stoeger Catalogue # 31 (1939) 'New York’s World Fair - Jubilee Issue'
Same lay out, same text and pricing for the Stoeger marked Lugers (page 154), page 155 is also 100% equal to page 103 from catalogue # 29.

1.4.8 Stoeger Catalogue # 39 (1948) (Since 1945 called 'The shooters Bible').
Just shown here to conclude this overview without an open end. The war was over, no new Lugers could be offered. (That means also that all Mauser made Stoeger marked Lugers were sold out...). Only used Lugers are offered here. A 4th grade is added; the so called 'war trophies'. The picture of the Luger is the same used since catalogue #25, stamped with the three line Stoeger markings, and still not showing the marking 'Germany', that on this type of Luger is found just above the ejector -blade.
One thing that wonders me is the existence of both 7"and 8" barrels with a Tangent rear sight in this offer.

Download Attachment: StoegerCat39.jpg
264.56 KB


1.5. Conclusions based upon examination of the catalogues
I did not have access to all Stoeger catalogues of the thirties. So I may have made a mistake of one to maximum two years. I try to avoid speculations, just summarizing the facts:

a. A.F. Stoeger published one picture of a three lines Stoeger ‘Genuine’ marked Luger in their catalogues 1931, # 16 and 1933 # 20. The word Germany is not present.

b. A.F. Stoeger was planning to buy three lines Stoeger marked Lugers from BKIW or Mauser as from 1931. The layout of the new marking was obviously ready at that time.

c. A.F. Stoeger published three pictures of three line Stoeger marked Lugers in her catalogue 1936, # 25, mentioning to the public the fact that the production of Lugers changed from DWM (sic) to Mauser

e. Also in that catalogue, the prices of the Lugers are 100% higher when compared with earlier catalogues, and for the first time, Stoeger offers also 'Reconditioned Lugers' at fairly low prices.

f. A.F. Stoeger had three line Stoeger marked Lugers in stock as from 1934, 1935 or 1936. (Missing catalogues between 1933 and 1936).

g. In the catalogue of 1948, no new Lugers are offered, only 'Selected used Luger Pistols'.

h. A.F. Stoeger sold the last three line Stoeger marked Lugers before or during 1947. (The 1948 catalogue was distributed in September 1947). (Hypothetically they could have stock, but they did not offer it to the public).

i. If I could examine the Stoeger Catalogues of 1934, 1935, and 1940 through 1947; further narrowing of the period of listing would be possible.


1.6. The stamping of the word 'Genuine' .
As seen before, the 3 line Stoeger marked Lugers presented in the catalogues of this firm, bear the word 'GENUINE' before the line 'LUGER - REGISTERED U.S. PATENT OFFICE' on the right rail of the frame.
Close examination of the characters and the alignment of these two elements reveal that the word 'genuine';
a. was stamped with another corps of characters.
b. the distance between genuine and the rest of the line differs slightly between every pistol.
c. the stamp is also slightly “out of line” – and / or not perfectly horizontal.

It is more than likely that the ‘genuine’ stamping was not done by Mauser, who simply would have done a better job. We must drop to the conclusion that it was an act of Stoeger, practiced after arrival of the pistols in New York, and probably before sales.

Why would Stoeger do such a thing? I can think of two reasons:
a. Mauser refused to do this. (by doing so, all other Mauser Lugers would be devaluated as being 'not genuine'.)
b. Stoeger wanted to control the doings of Mauser by adding this word in the U.S.A., making sure that Mauser would not sell pistols with the Stoeger marking to competitors in the U.S.A. These Lugers would immediately be recognized.

1.6.1 (from Jan C Still) Correspondance about the 'genuine' stamp
"An additional note on the application of the word "GENUINE" (page 205, of "Third Reich Lugers"). "August 17, 1930 correspondance between Stoegers, New York and Mauser indicates the word "GENUINE" in the third line has been left out and was to be included in the third line inscription of all Lugers sent to Stoeger in the Future."
(Kornmayer-Pearson 1988) Kornmayer or Pearson have a copy of this correspondance".


1.7. Quantities of three lines Stoeger 'Genuine' marked Lugers imported in the U.S.A.
Study of many books and publications within the Collectors Society as from 1979, and also the files of Eitan Feldmann, who studied Stoeger Lugers thoroughly since 1984, gave me sufficient material to propose the following thesis:

a. After WWI DWM changed her name into BKIW, being a daughter of a conglomerate. This conglomerate controlled also Mauser Werke in Oberndorf. At the end of the twenties, for reasons of economy, the decision was taken to bring the production of Pistols from BKIW over to Mauser.

b. During 1930 all drawings, tooling, several tons of parts, nearly completed Lugers and craftsmen came from Berlin to Oberndorf. The total price Mauser paid for the material was 10,636 Reichsmark, plus 0.20 RM per Kilo for the machinery. The 1st of May 1930 'Werkmeister' August Weiss moved from Berlin to Oberndorf.

c. Mauser took also over the existing contracts, made by DWM/BKIW for long time clients (i.e. Dutch Indies, Dutch Navy, Finland, Portugal, Stoeger etc.).

d. The production of these specific contract Lugers was continued, mostly with the old DWM logo on the front toggle.

e. Between 1930 and 1935, Mauser and Stoeger must have been corresponding about new orders for Lugers, which hade to be marked with a new three line Stoeger stamp, two lines on the right side of the receiver, one (new) line on the right rail of the frame.

f. Based upon analyses of SN's discovered until this moment, it is highly probable (see h.) that Mauser received in the inventory from BIKW a quantity of about 170 receivers already stamped with two Stoeger lines. All these receivers were proofed with the Crown/N of the BKIW period.

g. It is very probable also, that Mauser decided to prepare the same quantity of frames also, by stamping the new third line on the right rail. In that way they could cut costs by producing one homogeneous batch. Mauser used existing BKIW frames, which do not have the typical two ‘Mauser’ holes left and right in the top of the stock lug – rail. This is speculation from my side, but another explanation is not easy to think of. (See picture 2.6 below)

h. We know now, that the SN's of this batch run from 403v to 573v. These are the lowest and highest SN’s reported in this batch until this moment. Two authors mention the fact that Mauser files indicate that 413v should be the lowest Stoeger Luger in this batch. This information is overruled by reality. But… the SN’s 403v and 409v which are authenticated do not bear the ‘genuine’ stamp.

i. We can be certain about the fact, that the barrels were mounted just before shipping. They have the Mauser style sharp edge, and Mauser could not guess before, what kind of barrels Stoeger would order. (3 7/8", 4 3/4", 6", 8" in 7.65mm or 9mm cal.). With one exception, Mauser used the Crown/N proof for the barrels, without doubt to maintain throughout one kind of proof mark on all main parts.

j. Reinhard Kornmayer, probably using his findings in August Weiss's personal diary, states that the first shipment (1934/1935) to Stoeger consisted of only nine three line Stoeger marked Lugers: SN's 515v - 524v.

k. I have really no idea why Mauser did not start the shipments with the low 400v numbers. Further in this study, the reader will notice that the release of SN’s by Mauser does not reflect any order or system. ‘At random’ seems the appropriate term here.

l. In the already mentioned article in Arms Gazette (1979) the writers state: "... according to company records, two Stoeger Lugers were sold during the period of November 5, 1937 and November 21, 1939....".

m. Analyzing the 40 Stoeger marked Mauser Lugers reported until now I found that only 18 of them are confirmed to have the word 'Genuine' added before the third line on the right frame rail.

n. It is too easy to conclude that only about half of the 170 three line Stoegers in this range went directly to the Stoeger Firm, but it is obvious that an important number of the pistols were waiting for Stoeger orders in Germany. We know now that Mauser sold an important number of them to the Electric Company of Israel.

o. The three line Lugers I have here show 'Safe' and 'Loaded' markings on safety and extractor. Eitan Feldmann reports, that all Stoegers he examined had the same. All other three line Stoegers reported until now have ‘Safe’ and ‘Loaded’ also.

p. Still reports in ‘Weimar Lugers’ three line Stoegers with ‘genuine’: (pictured) 559v, 487v, 712v (the last one is an Artillery model).

q. Kenyon reports in ‘Lugers at Random’ with ‘genuine’ ; (pictured) 445v, 449v.

r. Costanza reports as authenticated: 403v*, 413v, 414v, 445v, 463v, 500v, 505v, 520v, 1029v, 1183v.
* This 403v Stoeger does not have the ‘genuine’ stamp – compare Still ‘Weimar Lugers’ page 285. The 6” barrel is not Mauser proofed either.

1.8 The twisted character.
Within the above mentioned series, at close examination, one can see a character in the stamped text, which is slightly deformed. The theory is that the roller stamp was replaced at a certain point during the production of the series. Of course that happened still under the BKIW regime. I do not wish to publish the details of it here as it is not my own discovery, and I have reasons to believe that this kind of detailed information must not leave our community too easy. If you want this 'classified' information, please send me an E-Mail. I am only glad to pass it to you.
Please have a good look at the following Luger (no comments):
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/33stoeg.htm


2. The Israeli side of the story.

2.1. How the Stoegers came in.
Please read my introduction in the thread:
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4947 under the chapter IL-5.

2.2. I was not the first.
I like to state here, that I was not the first ‘daring’ collector who visited Eitan Feldmann in his place in Israel. In fact, the late Don Bryans (co-writer with Joachim Görtz of 'German Small Arms Markings' (1997), has been there long before me (1984). He was also the man to establish the contact between Eitan Feldmann and Don Hallock, leading to the import of 26 rare Lugers in the U.S.A. In this lot came 9 three line Stoeger marked Lugers, without the ‘genuine’ marking. Seven from the first batch: (409v – 472v), and two real outsiders: 8732v + 8739v.

2.3. The statement of Mr. Galili.
At the time of the first import of Stoeger marked Lugers by Don Hallock, Eitan Feldmann asked for a written declaration about these pistols at the Chief Security Officer of the Electric Company of Israel, Mr. E. Galili. Eitan gave me his copy, and allowed me to publish it here.

Download Attachment: ECIdecl.jpg
92.81 KB


2.3.1. More pistols from the same source.
The 26 pistols, covered by the above shown declaration, are only a part of the grand total that was acquired during 1937 - 1938 by the Electric Company of Palestine. During the Arab uprising of 1936 - 1939, a great number of security officers had to guard about 120 miles of electric lines. Also the depots of construction material were watched during 24 hours a day, 7 days per week. After Mr. Galili allowed Eitan Feldmann (and Gad Teperson) to buy all obsolete Lugers from his company, they both decided to sell some 75% of them, keeping the rest for their collection. There are strong indications that some high ranked IDF officers (collectors) were allowed to buy some pistols earlier (1983). Stoeger Luger 499v is one of them, I located it just a few month ago in the collection of an Israeli General (ret.).

Eitan Feldmann and Gadi Teperson estimate that the E.C.P purchased at least fifty Lugers from the Mauser Agent in Haifa. Under pressure of the Arab uprising the message to Mauser was: “as quick as possible, as cheap as possible, no special wishes concerning markings”. As we have seen above, Mauser had indeed some problematic stocks to sell. The unsold Stoeger Lugers were part of that.

2.4. The types of the Lugers, purchased by the E.C.P. (Now Electric Company of Israel)
No records have survived in Israel about the exact number, the types or SN's. All we know now, is that all these Lugers had SN's within the ' v ' suffix series.

The study of Eitan Feldmann of the SN's of the Lugers bought by the E.C.P. teaches us the following:
- Low: 409v to 513v - all three lines Stoeger Marked Lugers, without the stamp 'Genuine' on the right rail. Estimated total: 15
7 went to the U.S.A. in 1984: 409v, 413v, 416v, 422v,432v, 441v, 472v.
3 went to Belgium in 2004: 450v, 484v, 513v.
2 are located in Israel: 460v, 499v.
3 are missing (if the estimate of 15 is correct).

- Mid: 3554v to 4938v - Subject to a future thread on this forum. Estimated total: 14

- High: 4939v to 5025v - Subject to a future thread on this forum. Estimated total: 19

- Out of range: Two three line non ‘genuine’ marked Stoeger lugers.*

* These two were also present in Israel. Both were imported into the U.S.A. by Don Hallock in 1984. Don has studied these 'out of series' thoroughly. He allowed me to present here his finding.

2.4.1 Don Hallock:
“I believe it's certain that all the remaining Stoegers in Mausers inventory went to the E.C.P. Fact is, I believe the 8700 - 8750v Stoegers were made up from current 1938 frames, parts and left over three line marked receivers. No other Stoegers have appeared after these from Israel”.

2.4.2. Jones found one too...
In Jones''Luger Variations', 1964 edition, page 165 he mentions three line Stoeger Luger 8750v. This one has 'genuine' stamped before the third line.

2.4.2. Gaps in the series of Stoegers that went to Israel.
As mentioned above (1.7.k) it looks like Mauser just took at random Stoeger marked pistols out of their stock. Another possibility is, that the Stoegers send to Palestine were simply the leftovers from the Stoeger contract. Don Hallock supports this thesis.

2.5 The three Stoeger marked Lugers I obtained from Eitan Feldmann.
Before showing the pictures you are (too) long waiting for, I like to give you a detailed specification of these three pistols.

All three:
Proofs: Receiver left – horizontal Crown N, Breechblock left - Crown N, Barrel under - Crown N.
Full serial Nr: frame under barrel, in between of SN and suffix ' v ' GERMANY' is stamped. SN also on barrel, down under proof mark, with suffix.
Barrels: 7.65mm sharp edged Mauser barrels, 3 7/8" long (98mm), impeccable witness marks, all three real shiny bores showing little use.
Small parts: strawed.
Matching two digits: Side plate under, rear of toggle, top left of trigger, take down lever under, no more (standard commercial).
Grip plates: slight wear, no markings inside.
Non matching magazines. (I found 484v in Don Hallock's list of orphan magazines. Don did a wonderful job for me in finding it back after 20 years of listing, bartering it back, and keeping it for me. Great achievement Don, thanks again!).
Wear: normal holster wear after 40 years of use; front of barrel, front of rails on both sides, side plates.

Exceptions found:
484v has a hold open devise with a marking # 01 (Replacement?). The take down lever misses the 84 SN marking.
513v has a darker right grip plate. Looks like an old replacement.
450v has a tiny bump in the middle of the trigger guard, it is not perfectly rounded on the left side.
484v and 513v have a 'D' stamped on the front of the sight base (just above the muzzle).

2.6 Pictures...
Please, accept my apologies for the poor quality of the pictures. Within few weeks I will be better equipped.

The American Eagle (Pointed tail)
Download Attachment: DSC00690.JPG
149.76 KB


The DWM Logo
Download Attachment: DSC00691.JPG
157.36 KB


Three Serial Numbers
Download Attachment: DSC00693.JPG
141.51 KB


Sight base: 484v and 513v have a 'D' , 450v has not
Download Attachment: DSC00732.JPG
27.81 KB


Stock lug: left DWM/BKIW, right Mauser frame, see 1.7.g
Download Attachment: DSC00731.JPG
45.73 KB

2.7. Three line Stoeger marked 450v
Download Attachment: DSC00675.JPG
150.63 KB

Download Attachment: DSC00682.JPG
146.12 KB

Download Attachment: DSC00683.JPG
151.24 KB

2.8. Three line Stoeger marked 484v
Download Attachment: DSC00674.JPG
153.37 KB

Download Attachment: DSC00712.JPG
158.18 KB

Download Attachment: DSC00720.JPG
147.77 KB

2.9. Three line Stoeger marked 513v
Download Attachment: DSC00673.JPG
145.98 KB

Download Attachment: DSC00722.JPG
133.93 KB


I sincerely hope that the tutorial way in which I have built this presentation was not too boring for you. To my opinion however, reports about rather unexplored Lugers variations must be done with the greatest precaution. I tried to follow this rule. In the few cases that I was seduced to utter an obvious conclusion, I have clearly stated that it concerns a personal speculation.

And where are the other 135 three line Stoegers?


Download Attachment: DSC00735.JPG
67.52 KB


Sources I consulted about Stoeger Lugers:
Stoeger Catalogues 1928 – 1948
The Luger Pistol (1955 - 1959) - Fred A. Datig
Luger Variations (1959) - Harry E. Jones
World of Lugers Serial numbers of Lugers Issued...etc. (1975) - Sam Costanzo
World of Lugers Proof Marks (1977) - Sam Costanzo
Arms Gazette November 1979 - C.L. Conrad, Ralph E. Shattuck
Automag magazine (1984 - 1985) David Ginsburg & D. Hallock, Eitan Feldmann
Personal files of Eitan Feldmann (1984 - 2003) (used with his approval)
Die Pistole 08 (1984) Joachim Görtz
Third Reich Lugers 1988 - J.C. Still
Lugers at random 1990 – C. Kenyon Jr.
Weimar Lugers 1993 – J.C. Still
The Luger Story (1995 - 2001) - John Walter
La connaissance du Luger (1996) - G. Henrotin
Correspondance with Don Hallock – 2005 (used with his approval)

Thank you for reading my second publication about the Lugers I found in Israel. For the next presentation you will have to wait again a few weeks. My research about the so called 'Latvian' variation is not yet finished.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
Your effort in this manner is outstanding !! If only others would practice the same or similiar pattern many of our present day questions could be answered. Congratulations !! Well Done !!!!
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Don, John James,

You both responded to my presentation even before I had posted the pictures of the three Stoegers... Thanks for you kind words, they give me extra energy to fulfill my objective; reporting in a serious way about the special Lugers I took over from Eitan Feldmann and Gadi Teperson in Israel.
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
6,083 Posts
Joop, a wonderful presentation, and your command of English is impressive to say the least.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,828 Posts
Nice!
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,136 Posts
Joop, very well done!

Great compilation of information,


Ed
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
Joop
Outstanding very detailed presentation on Stoeger marked Lugers. The best! Very well researched and documented.
Thanks
Jan

An additional note on the application of the word "GENUINE" (page 205, of "Third Reich Lugers"). "August 17, 1930 correspondance between Stoegers, New York and Mauser indicates the word "GENUINE" in the third line has been left out and was to be included in the third line inscription of all Lugers sent to Stoeger in the Future."
(Kornmayer-Pearson 1988) Kornmayer or Pearson have a copy of this correspondance. (I may have a copy but it is buried in files somewhere)
 
S

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Joop
Fantastic job. Re 8725v. I doubt this pistol ever found it's way to Palistine or from Israel. Although the serial number fits the 1937 - 1938 assembly period, there is no record of the pistol having been the property of the Electric Company of Palistine (E.C.P.).
Once again, great work.
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
George, Gerben, Ed,

Thanks for the support you gave me. If you think this kind of 'academic' approach will be digestible enough to attrack newbees, I think you are wrong... What I did aim at was the group of more or less educated lugerophiles (like me). Let's wait and see if this tutorial could grow out to be a sort of reference for the Stoeger Lugers. I intend to keep it 'up to date' with new facts that might occur.
Thanks again for the 'flowers'.
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Jan,

I missed that one. Well, if you would have a moment to spend, and if you would like to blow the dust from your old files, yes I would love to see the Pearson - Kornmayer report about the Stoeger / BKIW-Mauser correspondence. I promise to incorporate it immediately into my presentation. I like to keep it updated anyway.
Thanks for your compliments!
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Don, (silvereagle29)

I expected more or less your comment on the three line Stoeger 8725v. You saw me inviting readers to examine this Luger, which is offered for sale now. And I know you have a very personal opinion about it - much clearer than your remark that it did not come to the U.S.A. from Israel. Let us invite the experts of this Forum to have a close look, and give their personal opinions in this thread.
(See 1.8 in the presentation)
Thanks, Don.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,265 Posts
Joop,

an outstanding and very educative article (it's more than just a post)! You did a wonderful job to gather all this information. I learned a lot about Stoeger and the Lugers in the twenties in the US, as well as some new information about Lugers in Israel!

If I may, I'd like to ad some information about the above mentioned US trademarks. Just returned from the library of the University of Hannover, where they have also the U.S. Official Gazette dealing with US patents, designs and trademarks. I found the following three trademarks:

1/ Trademark No. 191,368 "DWM" filed January 28, 1924 by D.W.M. Arms & Ammunition Corporation, New York, N.Y. for the good "Pistols, Rifles, and Ammunition. Published in the Official Gazette March 11, 1924, page 266.

Download Attachment: US-Tradem_191368-DWM.jpg
131.15KB

2/ Trademark No. 191,369 "Parabellum" filed January 28, 1924 by D.W.M. Arms & Ammunition Corporation, New York, N.Y. for the good "Pistols, Rifles, and Ammunition. Published in the Official Gazette May 06, 1924, page 28.

Download Attachment: US-Tradem_191369-Parabellum.jpg
92.07KB

3/ Trademark No.290, 722 "LUGER", filed Oct. 05, 1929 by A. F. Stoeger, Inc., New York, N. Y. for the goods "Shotguns, Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles and Parts thereof". Published in the Official Gazette on February 11, 1930, page 260.

Download Attachment: US-Tradem_290722-LUGER.jpg
103.61KB


So, the DWM and Parabellum trademarks were owned by DWM, while Stoeger had the Luger trademark. Personally, I think, DWM had no objections against Stoeger's Luger trademark, because at that time nobody here in Germany was aware of the fact, that Luger was the inventor of this pistol. And nobody called this pistol a "Luger", but only "Pistole 08" or "Parabellum". It might well be, that Stoeger's marketing activities are the reason why everybody in the US is calling this pistol a Luger. Maybe, Stoeger's trademark made a development like other trademarks: first, it was just a brand name for a certain product. Later, it developed to be a generic name – like "Aspirin", what was/is (at least in Germany) a trademark of Bayer AG for this wonderful head ache pill……


Regards

Martin
P.S. Sorry for the poor quality of the scans. But the copy machine at the library (no scanners allowed aren’t the best…..
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,136 Posts
quote:Originally posted by sauerfan

Joop,
...had no objections against Stoeger's Luger trademark, because at that time nobody here in Germany was aware of the fact, that Luger was the inventor of this pistol. Martin
Yes Martin, I imgaine just like the 1911, no one calls it a "Browning", yet we all know he invented it. I am guessing that the ads for Luger in the magazines after WW1, that the returning GI's then asked for a luger and word-of-mouth kept everyone wanting one. I have seen many instances of GI's kids calling the "Nambu" a Japanese Luger, have seen folks call a Radom and a P38 a "luger", one because of the caliber and two, because the GI had no real idea and still doesn't what he has...

Ed
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Martin,

Thank you for your kind compliments about my presentation.
Thank you even more for the fact that you checked my information about the registration of the trade marks to what you found in Germany.
I based the patent - part of my story (1.2) upon the november 1979 article, written by C.L. Conrad & Ralph E. Shattuck in 'Arms Gazette'. They write very explicitly about these facts and even the exact dates of the deposit in the USA are quoted.
Your documentation shows very clearly that DWM was not sleeping, and took the necessary steps to deposit their principal brand names (DWM and Parabellum) on their own account.
If you allow me, I will use the results of your research to correct point 1.2 in my presentation. Please give me your approval to do so.
Thanks again,
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,828 Posts
What is also interesting, is that DWM never registered the scroll-DWM logo that was used on the P08. They did register a capital 'DWM' text later, but not the surrounding Mauser-like 'barrel' shape (unlike the Mauser scroll logo as it's usually referred to).

The successor of DWM, IWKA, still has a stylized version of the 'barrel' logo. The barrel did become some sort of mark to identify DWM-produced articles under the DWM, Mauser, Nicorro, IWK, Comet and 0tnima brand names.

This was the 1964 state of affairs:
Download Attachment: DWM_logos_1964.jpg
17.85KB
 

·
Moderator / Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
9,925 Posts
Joop, I am amazed by your through research on this interesting subject.

I have a copy of the Stoeger catalog .33 of 1941. Let me know what you would like to see out of it if anything. Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,265 Posts
Joop,

sure, you have my approval! Thanks for asking - but that wasn't necessary, as the reason why I placed the Trademarks just was to correct some details of your fine article.

Martin
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Jerry,

I was out for a few days. Yes, I would like to have a scan of the 1 or 2 page(s) of catalogue 33 where the offers for Lugers, new or used are printed. I narrows the gap between catalogue 1939 and 1948. Thanks for your help, much appreciated!
My mail address: [email protected]
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top