[sauerfan]

Gentlemen,

Accidentally, I stumbled across three different German patents, all relating to insertion barrel attachments. This find fits to a post of Luke

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4642

regarding his question of a muzzle cover for sale on ebay.


Anyway, I hope (I pray!), my patent find is interesting for the Luger experts:

1/ German Patent # 432028 of Karl Weiss and RWS, Nuremberg applied on February 08, 1923

Abstract of the patent:

"A lining tube is secured at the front only by being screwed into a sleeve fixed at the muzzle of the barrel. As shown, a sleeve 5 fits over the muzzle and is fastened by a bayonet-joint using the foresight base as an abutment. A bush 6 is screwed into the sleeve at the front to bear against the muzzle of the barrel and thus to clamp the sleeve against the foresight base. The lining tube 3 has a screw-threaded part 9 near the front and is screwed into the bush 6 and locked by a nut 8."



Download Attachment: de432028.jpg
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drawing of the Weiss/RWS patent


2/German Patent # 450713, of Polte Metallwerke, Magdeburg applied on February 08, 1923 – the very same day, the Weiss/RWS patent was applied!



Download Attachment: DE450713.jpg
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drawing of the Polte patent


3/German Patent # 461610 of Friedrich Gomann, Berlin, applied on April 03, 1926




Download Attachment: DE461610.jpg
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drawing of the Gomann patent

A fourth design was used Erma, using two counter-nuts. Fritz showed us already photos of this design here:

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1041

Regards

Martin

 

[Luke]

Hello Martin,

Great material. Thank you. This answers a lot of questions.

Very much appreciate your taking the time to research the subject.

Best Regards,
Luke

 

[eroane]

Sauerfan
I enjoyed your post and these are two examples of the third type you show. Both are for 7,65mm Lugers and are 4mm/M20 caliber. The boxed set is for a 4" barrel and the other fits a 4 3/4" barrel.
Thanks
Ed

Download Attachment: Mvc-003f.jpg
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[Luke]

Edward -

Have you ever used either of these?

Luke

 

[eroane]

Hello Luke
I have used the 4-3/4" insert in my Portuguese GNR pictured below. Back when the 4mm/M20 cartridges where cheap you could buy a sleeve of ten containers of a 100 each for about $60, now I think the OLD Western Scrounger wants $25 each. So I don't use them as much as I use to, but they are a lot of fun to shoot at soda cans and are fairly accurate out to 25 or so feet.The insert pictured below is marked ERMA and is my favorite because it fits the 4" 9mm barrels on the military pistols.
Thanks again
Ed

Download Attachment: Mvc-001f.jpg
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Download Attachment: Mvc-003f.jpg
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Download Attachment: Mvc-004f.jpg
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[RockinWR]

Hi All,
* Think the muzzle band of the Luger in the attached thread was cut for a Polte style insert?
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3741&SearchTerms=muzzle,band
* Just a thought.

 

[sauerfan]

RockinWR,

yes! I guess so too! The cut in the muzzle band of Jared's Luger looks exactly like the cut shown in the drawing of the Polte patent!

Martin

 

[Luke]

Martin -

I'm not so sure. Take a look at two additional pictures of this gun's muzzle area, below. From the marks behind the slot in the muzzle band it appears that something was twisted on, making lateral scratches behind the muzzle.

Download Attachment: Muzzle Band.jpg
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In addition the rear, serrated edge of the front sight is damaged as if something had been clamped behind the sight. Perhaps coincidental damage to the sight?



Download Attachment: Front Sight.jpg
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Luke

 

[sauerfan]

Luke,

OK, I agree after having examined the new photos. Something else must have been attached to the muzzle.

Martin

 

[Luke]

Martin -

Can you discuss the following portion of the Polte drawings? It appears that a clamp is placed behind the front sight in Abb.5. Also, the Abb.6 drawing is not clear to me. Is that yet another variation of the attachment?

Thanks,
Luke

Download Attachment: patent excerp.jpg
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[sauerfan]

Luke,

according to the patent's description, Figures 5 and 6 are showing alternative embodiments of Polte's invention. I tried to make a translation of the relevant sentences:

"Fixing clamp 'e' can be connected to the barrel in a manner differing from those shown in Fig. 1 – 4. For example, as shown in Fig. 5, the slitted clamp may be hooked over the front sight 'i', or, as shown in Fig. 6, the notched clamp might clasp the front sight laterally. Also, the lock nut 'd' can be made simplier, as shown in Fig. 5 and 6."

Hope, this helps.

Regards

Martin

 

[Luke]

Martin -

Thank you ! ! ! A theory begins to take shape. I wonder if the notch in this Commercial-Army was, in fact, cut for this attachment . . . . AND the other two types were also used, the first causing damage in hooking the clamp over the sight, and the second causing the scratch marks on the bottom of the barrel as it was twisted around the front sight. Possible?

Luke

 

[sauerfan]

Luke,

well, hum, yes, why not? Seems to be possible. The question now is: has anybody seen a Polte insert barrel with attachments? I looked yesterday evening in some sources of the time (books, catalogs and the like) and I did not find any mentioning of the Polte barrel. Only the RWS barrel is mentioned in some books/catalogs, as well as the Erma barrel.

Martin

 

[Luke]

Sure wish I knew the answer, but it appears the answer might never be known.

Hey . . . . maybe this was the very pistol modified by Polte to prove the invention.

Just kidding.

Thanks again, Martin.

 

[eroane]

Hello all
There is a photo of a type of Polte System on page 321 of "Luger Holster and Accessories of the 20th Century" by Mr. Bender which lacks the tab on the hinged latch that would fit in the slot milled into the underside of the muzzle band, figure "F" as shown in the enlarged Patent Drawing Sauerfan provided.

Download Attachment: a.jpg
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Thanks
Ed

 

[Luke]

Ed,

I believe that is the 2nd drawing posted by Martin in his original contribution.

Has anyone ever actually seen one of these devices?

Luke