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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all
I have been looking at this loading tool for a while and am not sure what to make of it. There are slight differences in it as compaired to the Bing (B/N) made ones. It is Crown "D" proofed on the left side and also has a 'R' within a 'W' on the same side. The only two references I can find to the R/W are in The Luger Book by Walters on page 286 which states " On P.08,a monogram of 'R' within 'W':the mark of a Mauser factory principal inspector,R(ichard?)Weiss and World of Lugers by Costanzo on page 219 figure 222 "quality control inspectors stamp found on bottom frame rail of back receiver slide and also on middle toggle link. This proof is rarely seen on barrel and frame. Stamp has been noted on 1938 through 1941 models.
Any ideas?
Thanks


TM08a.JPG
Right side.



TM08b.JPG
The best closeup of these stamps I have gotten so far.



TM08c.JPG



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Thanks
Ed.R
 

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Hello Eroane
The problem in France we see lots of these one there are made in Asie most in Vietnam.I hope for you it's not a repro except you buy it a little price .There's one loading tool for five trommels !! :so repro
 

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Discussion Starter #3
quote:Originally posted by LU1900

Hello Eroane
The problem in France we see lots of these one there are made in Asie most in Vietnam.I hope for you it's not a repro except you buy it a little price .There's one loading tool for five trommels !! :so repro
Hello LU1900
Thank you for your reply. There are a lot of reproduction TM 08 loading tools floating around in the states also and the original are hard to find, but they do show up from time to time.The first one I got came from Mr.Paul Crockett,Jr.a long time collector here and I dont remember where I found the other one.Here are a few photos compairing the originals to the reproductions with a small list of the differences I have noted.The list of different features between the original and reproduction loading tools was made up in Microsoft Excel and I could not find a way to transfer it over so there is a photo of it after the photos.Computers and I dont get along very well together.
As always all comments and observations are welcome.

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Great presentation! Thank you.

I request a point of clarification. You state on your final critique sheet that the original has a spot welded body seam while the repro has a butt welded body seam. Your picture seems to show the opposite to be the case? I am assuming that that the repro in the attached pic is shown on the right?

Thanks.


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Bill,
That puzzled me too, but perhaps it is the front lap joint/butt joint, not the side crimp joint, that is the reference on the chart?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
quote:Originally posted by Ron Wood

Bill,
That puzzled me too, but perhaps it is the front lap joint/butt joint, not the side crimp joint, that is the reference on the chart?
Good morning garfield & Ron
Sorry for the confusion. The joint I was refering to is on the front of the body,which is a rolled shell.In the photo that Ron is refering to both have spot welds that secure a inset at the back of the loaders.
I guess this is clear as muddy water.
Thanks

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Many thanks Ed. You had me worried until I was able to check my own example against on your excellent data. But just one query: how to prove that the "repro" isn´t just another example of different manufacturers who made them at that time? Especially as the police also used them with the Bergmann MP after WWI. Another question arises as to why I´ve not yet seen any of the "repro" type here in Germany.

Patrick
 

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Discussion Starter #14
quote:Originally posted by villiers

Many thanks Ed. You had me worried until I was able to check my own example against on your excellent data. But just one query: how to prove that the "repro" isn´t just another example of different manufacturers who made them at that time? Especially as the police also used them with the Bergmann MP after WWI. Another question arises as to why I´ve not yet seen any of the "repro" type here in Germany.

Patrick
Hello Patrick
I hope all is well with you and yours.
Does your example have a crown/gothic letter inspection stamp on the lower magazine release button side of the body ? I think this is a very important feature because to me it means someone has certified as to it's mfg.,fit and function.The loading & unloading I have called reproductions are both stamped B/N (Bing) but lack any inspection stamps. The unloading tool is a very loose fit on a TM-08 and the loading tool is so tight a fit that it will not latch into place.
When I received these two tools they were as new condition,no scratchs,nicks,dents and the black paint was in perfect condition.In my mind things dont lie around 80+ years and show no signs of deterioration.
Can you post photos of your example,I (we) would love to see it.
Thanks
 

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Thanks for your reply Ed,

yes, mine have the two (pretty faint) stamps still visible and the blueing is a bit plummy. Of course, newly manufactured repros in pristine condition are bound to be forgeries. But I´m quite sure that loaders (and ones that later became magazine un-laoading tools) must have been made after WWI by a number of small workshops. A number of people here have tried to start a small run of repros - but they all seem to have given up. Quite good repro canvas snail drum pouches are being made here in Germany - but are expensive.
Patrick
PS
I´ve only just re-disvovered the site - great relief!
 

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eroane-

I've got a loading tool that has all the characteristics of the one you identify as a reproduction, but it does have an Imperial proof near the B/N stamp. I assume that that means it's a reproduction that has been stamped by some enterprising individual....

On a related note...if I had a LOT of money I'd set up a lab where I could do metallurgical and chemical work and I'd find ways to identify fake and repro militaria and I wouldn't tell anyone how I did it, since as soon as the crooks know what's wrong with their fake, they just fix it. Oh well....
 

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And I´m another grateful reader. I never thought it would be profitable to reproduce an item such as the loader. But - seeing the following in Simpson´s web page came as a bit of a shock:

12a. SNAIL DRUM LOADING TOOL, these are almost perfect reproductions, appears to be made from original tooling, new $495.00

I wonder whether the criteria mentioned above would cover Simpson´s repro.

Patrick
 

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I had a nice repro some years back that MAY have come from Doug Smith. I bought it from R Shattuck. It was not marked in any way. It was painted black and functioned quite well.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hello all
I started this thread back in September because a month or so earlier there was a repo. loading tool listed on E-bay and I said to myself,I've got one of those. At the time I looked at it the high bid was around $69.00, so I put in my "watch this item list" just to see what it was going to sell for. (I was thinking around $165.00)A week later it was well over $600.00. For a Reproduction.
 

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eroane

Are you absolutely sure of your chart, I have two TMo8 loading tools B/N marked, the first is serial# 1923 stamped on the opposite side of body from the B/N stamp and the last two digits of serial # are stamped on the ear of handle and on the magazine release button. The other is a modified loading tool that has been made into a unloading tool, serial # 2916 with the last two digits of the serial # on the ear of handle body, release button and on the side of lever that unloads bullets with a two piece wire spring going down the handle that attaches to the unloading lever,the release button on this tool has been strawed. also the tools both fit your description of fakes. Could you please supply the source of your info.
 
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