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I do not know much about Krieghoff Parabellums, but I have read/heard that ALL 1945 examples are indeed fake...because someday I would like to start up/obtain just a small collection...

Is this 100% true, or still speculation, or an educated guess...??? Just always wanted to know...one way or the other...thank you in advance to our Krieghoff Luger expert Forum members...

Edward
 

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Probably the biggest issue with them is they ARE NOT made up using HK parts .

As many know there was only one run of parts production and ALL HONEST HK's are assembled from this batch of parts .

This includes the postwar assembled guns .

To believe the 12,000 and 13,000 serial range guns are real you would have to believe HK tooled up from scratch to build a couple hundred obsolete guns in late1944-1945 .

At that stage of the war this probably was not a real high priority .

Remember the postwar guns are indeed made up from surplus HK parts .

There are many stories about who - where and when these gems were hatched but the above is pretty hard to reason past .

Gibson's book is great but could use some updates .
This subject would be the first to correct IMHO .

I do not know much about Krieghoff Parabellums, but I have read/heard that ALL 1945 examples are indeed fake...because someday I would like to start up/obtain just a small collection...

Is this 100% true, or still speculation, or an educated guess...??? Just always wanted to know...one way or the other...thank you in advance to our Krieghoff Luger expert Forum members...

Edward
The mag section needs help also .
 

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I do not know much about Krieghoff Parabellums, but I have read/heard that ALL 1945 examples are indeed fake [...] Is this 100% true, or still speculation, or an educated guess...???
All 1945 examples are fake unless you want to count the post-war assembled "PX" guns (as Tom calls them). No question about it. IMO, there is a very decent chance that many of the post-1940 guns are forgeries also.

Gibson's book is great but could use some updates .
This subject would be the first to correct IMHO .
Gibson's book is not as bad as the Costanzo book, but it is a relic at this point. Someone should write an updated book with updated research, but I am not holding my breath.

Also, lol at the Kü stuff in the video. I see the answer still has not permeated into old school Luger collectors.
 

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I have a lot of correspondence between Henrich Krieghoff and Harry Jones (Luger Variations) author concerning Krieghoff Luger production. Ford Nut is correct on the 1944 & 1945 production there was none done at the Krieghoff Factory.

I am attaching a letter concerning the KU lugers and Krieghoff. I posted this some years back on the other Forum. Not sure why the misinformation still continues on the KU's.
Regards,
Mike
 

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That letter is amazing and should put to bed so much of the mis-information. I bet a lot of people don’t want to believe that information as well as the KU issue because they have a vested interest or two sitting in their safe. Just my 2 cents.
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A little clarification here .
My comment about 1944 dated guns was referring to the ones in the upper 12,000 and 13,000 serial range .
These are the same as the 1945 dated guns in they are NOT MADE of HK parts .

I personally owned 1944 dated gun 11298 back in the 1990"s and sold it to Bob Simpson in 2003 .
This gun walked into the " Outdoorsman " gun shop in Hopkins MN in the 1990 " s in the hands of the deceased vets brother .
It was in a 1939 WaA marked holster with 2 mauser mags and a mauser tool .
The entire rig was in excellent condition with the exception of a ding in the trigger guard and a spot of pitting on the muzzle .
Grips were not worn at all but were not the best quality .
The man that brought it in did not know much about it other than his brother brought it home from the war and kept it in his dresser .
Never shot it and it was caked with very dry-hard grease .
He sold it to Keith [ the owner of the Outdoorsman ] for $600.00 .
Keith was not a Luger collector but had them from time to time and I had bought several from him .
I do not know who else it was offered to for offers other than me and Ken Kontos .
Keith freely admitted getting it for $600.00 and asked for an offer .
I assume he did this with any others it was offered to .
I do know Ken Kontos offered $3,500.00 and was turned down .
I offered $4,500.00 and got it .
Sadly when I was increasing my back yard from 80 acres to 510 acres I sold it to Bob Simpson in 2003 for $5,000.00 minus the mauser stuff and with a close but improper aluminum bottom E2 marked mag .

Did not know at that time a proper 1944 mag is un-proofed with the last 3 of the serial electro penciled on the back spine .

Only 1944 I ever owned but I did get to paw Lee Kelsers 1944 and it was the same as mine detail wise .
My current 1943 is close detail wise but has a marked aluminum bottom mag .

Not going to get into fine details to look for on these but any out there that really have studied these should know there are definately things to look for beyond being all HK produced parts and sub par grips .

Had my own info used against me before and I seriously like these things so some info stays private .

Read a couple posts by the same poster that said most if not all post 1940 dated HK's are forgeries .
Yes I have seen some myself but they are as easy to tell as fake as the 12,000 and 13,000 range guns are .

One question about the questioning all post 1940 dated guns is why are there many 1940 dated guns throughout the 11,000 serial range ????

nuff said and the KU guns have never been of any interest to me as they are clearly mainly - if not all mauser parts .
I do not recall ever seeing ANY HK parts on them .

Not going to pick on the video but note the " 9 " font in the date of the 1939 , 1941 and 1945 dated guns . Now look at the " 9 " font in gibsons book on 1941 large date 11278 . Same with any 1944 or 1945 dated guns in the 12,000 or 13,000 serial range .

BTW 11278 is also pictured as a 1940 before being ruined .

To sum this up IMHO any 1939 , 1941 large date and ANY 1944 or 1945 dated gun in the 12,000 or 13,000 serial range is a fake .

There are genuine 1938 dated guns but also plenty fake ones .

Any fake HK that is not made of HK parts is easy to tell - it is the slightly modified or touched up honest ones that are much more of a threat . .
 

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Had my own info used against me before and I seriously like these things so some info stays private .
Used against you? How? Someone telling you something you don't want to hear? Keeping "secret knowledge" (and refusing to listen to or address criticism) is very unhealthy for any collecting field and is how bad ideas get circulated in the first place. Sharing and discussing ideas, especially cross-discipline, is vital to the growth of any collecting field. It is how the Kü Luger mystery was finally solved and how I discovered all the BAL info.

One question about the questioning all post 1940 dated guns is why are there many 1940 dated guns throughout the 11,000 serial range ????
Not sure I fully understand your question, but yes having 1940s sprinkled throughout the 11000 range is a big problem. The absolutely bonkers serial number progression after 1940 has no reasonable explanation, and I defy anyone make any sense of that mess. There are other concerns as well but we won't delve into all that.

Do you have access to the secret knowledge of updated serial lists? Tom's list here hasn't been updated since 2015. Would be very curious to see what else has turned up since then, especially in the 11000 range.
 

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thanks for posting the video. Nice overview, but as usual, everyone's feedback really helps me in "learning" more about the Luger. Thanks
 

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Interesting response - actually expected .

How does your own info get used against you .
The most shining example is when you answer questions - point out the good points about a sellers stuff and put their mind at ease . Then either the price goes up or it is not for sale any longer .
Another example is helping the crooked element to alter things more accurately .
You slam Costanzos book which was an early attempt and yes is inaccurate in some ways .
I have it and I view it as an early attempt to help collectors .

A shining example of info being being used by crooks is our old buddy " stork legs " EL2 .
Compare him to the ones in the book .
Stills book shows this part of his book also .
Look at the MANY references to " stork legs E2 " here . The evidence speaks for itself .

On the KU thing as I stated I have never had any interest in them as they are just Mausers to me .

On the BAL info as I stated earlier Thanks .
To carry that further though you stated that the HK's you have seen did not have terrible quality work in the upkeep of their stamps or the application of same ????

That kinda tells me you are not very familiar with actually looking at HK P.08's .
I have not seen all for sure but I have seen enough to say it is not common to find a gun that does not have any of these issues .
The bit about the inspectors being drunk - blind or whatever is a long standing joke here .
With much evidence to back it up .
I stopped bothering to post sloppy work but their are MANY more examples .
And yes this includes early ones also .

Not going to get into the messed up 11,000 serial range issues beyond what Gibson says about it as it is obvious the un-finished guns were moved .

Yes I have seen some up-dated info on serials but the person that was doing it decided it was time to leave here .

Maybe time for a break myself as I think I have left some good info here to help sort good from bad .
Lugers are a secondary HOBBY to me and I have other things to do .

I will leave my standard challenge to the sellers of bad stuff as I live buy a major source of bad stuff " see if you can sell me a bad one " . He has never managed to and not for lack of trying .


Used against you? How? Someone telling you something you don't want to hear? Keeping "secret knowledge" (and refusing to listen to or address criticism) is very unhealthy for any collecting field and is how bad ideas get circulated in the first place. Sharing and discussing ideas, especially cross-discipline, is vital to the growth of any collecting field. It is how the Kü Luger mystery was finally solved and how I discovered all the BAL info.



Not sure I fully understand your question, but yes having 1940s sprinkled throughout the 11000 range is a big problem. The absolutely bonkers serial number progression after 1940 has no reasonable explanation, and I defy anyone make any sense of that mess. There are other concerns as well but we won't delve into all that.

Do you have access to the secret knowledge of updated serial lists? Tom's list here hasn't been updated since 2015. Would be very curious to see what else has turned up since then, especially in the 11000 range.
BTW I am literate enough to know what " insurgent " means .
 

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I hope you aren't taking any of this personally, because I certainly don't intend it to be.

I've certainly looked at as many HKs as I can find good photos of. Most of the inspection work was likely done by the technische angestellter who were likely more educated than your average arbeiter. Older, maybe, but hardly unskilled conscripts.

The only thing "obvious" about the 11000 series is that something is very, very wrong. Whatever Gibson says. If these alleged unfinished pistols were moved any meaningful distance (i.e., outside the general vicinity of Suhl), I am afraid that BAL2 would have had to move with them. Unlikely, to say the least.

But I do not think I am unfair to Gibson. His book was fine for 1980, probably the best he could do at the time. Never said otherwise. But its not 1980 anymore and younger collectors need to know not to treat the book as holy writ. Costanzo is garbage though.

And yes the insurgent bit is tongue-firmly-in-cheek.

Interesting response - actually expected .

How does your own info get used against you .
The most shining example is when you answer questions - point out the good points about a sellers stuff and put their mind at ease . Then either the price goes up or it is not for sale any longer .
Another example is helping the crooked element to alter things more accurately .
You slam Costanzos book which was an early attempt and yes is inaccurate in some ways .
I have it and I view it as an early attempt to help collectors .

A shining example of info being being used by crooks is our old buddy " stork legs " EL2 .
Compare him to the ones in the book .
Stills book shows this part of his book also .
Look at the MANY references to " stork legs E2 " here . The evidence speaks for itself .

On the KU thing as I stated I have never had any interest in them as they are just Mausers to me .

On the BAL info as I stated earlier Thanks .
To carry that further though you stated that the HK's you have seen did not have terrible quality work in the upkeep of their stamps or the application of same ????

That kinda tells me you are not very familiar with actually looking at HK P.08's .
I have not seen all for sure but I have seen enough to say it is not common to find a gun that does not have any of these issues .
The bit about the inspectors being drunk - blind or whatever is a long standing joke here .
With much evidence to back it up .
I stopped bothering to post sloppy work but their are MANY more examples .
And yes this includes early ones also .

Not going to get into the messed up 11,000 serial range issues beyond what Gibson says about it as it is obvious the un-finished guns were moved .

Yes I have seen some up-dated info on serials but the person that was doing it decided it was time to leave here .

Maybe time for a break myself as I think I have left some good info here to help sort good from bad .
Lugers are a secondary HOBBY to me and I have other things to do .

I will leave my standard challenge to the sellers of bad stuff as I live buy a major source of bad stuff " see if you can sell me a bad one " . He has never managed to and not for lack of trying .



BTW I am literate enough to know what " insurgent " means .
 
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