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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am pleased that I can show you here one of the rarest German armed forces pistols, the WaA 251 accepted Unique Mod.16, # 25 383.
Much isn't known over this weapon.
If one starts out from the watched serial numbers, then about 3000 pieces can have been accepted by the Germans only.
According to Mr. Whittington it's the lowest serial number registered to the time.
It is very interesting, that the slide has exactly the same size as in the case of the Mod.17.
For the first time I can present you a matching holster for this pistol. It's made in the typical German style. Clother inspection shows that it was reworked from pieces of a wartime holster(WWI) for a French 8mm Mod.1892( Lebel ) revolver.These holsters identify themselves by their cartridge ammunition pouch, made from one piece of leather.
You can see the remaining stitchings on the front side as well as from the shoulder strap on the back side.
The left belt loop was reworked once again.

It's really a very rare rig.

Fritz

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Mod.16 magazine on the left - Mod.17 magazine on the right side
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G

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Fritz,
That is a very nice example that you have there! I have been wondering if one was going to show up here on the boards before I had a chance to dig mine out and take some pics. I came across #26579 at a local show about 10 years ago. The guy who was selling the pistol was advertising it as a Model 17 but something just didn't quite look right to me (though I owned Still's book at the time, it had been quite a while since I had looked through it). Anyway, I copied down the serial number and features before going on my way. Later that day I did get a chance to check the book and needless to say, made a bee-line back to that gunshow. Luckily it was still there so it's the one that "almost got away"!

In any event, this one also came w/ a holster that seemed to be made for it. The only two things I can say about it w/ some certainty are that it didn't appear to be a rework and also that I don't believe it had any markings on it at all.

A very nice find you made again!
 

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Were the serial numbers for the Model 16 intermixed with
those of the Model 17, or were they in their own series?

Also, were any other models of Unique pistols besides
these two produced by / or used by the Germans?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
This is a question which still must be cleared up.
The production of Unique pistols started in 1923 with the model 10 in the caliber 6,35, a pistol in the style of the Browning 1906.
A few of them are reported with the commercial eagle/ N stamping.
Only the model 17 was used in 1939-1940 by the French army and the police of some cities. 18000 pieces have been provided to the French army until the occupation of the country by the Germans.
Jean Huon writes in his book - Les pistolets automatiques francais -( French automatic pistols )that the Germans have confiscated 8000 of this and distributed to the army.
To this day, it isn't cleared yet, if there is a serial range of his own for the model 16.
It has to be assumed that also other French spoils pistols were used.
The German list for strange equipments from 1941 shows the following pistols: Ruby, Star 14, 1935 A. and astonishing enough the Astra Mod. 1921( Pistole 642 (f) )and Star B ( Pistole 647 (f) ).The Star B is described here as a French "Colt" .38 .
Not all weapons included in this list have also actually gone to the troop.

Fritz

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German trooper wearing a french Lebell revolver.
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Just to add to the information, here is my Unique 16 with WaA251. The serial number is 27944. This is the latest one I have seen and right at the end of the range for these pistols as listed in Col. Whittington's Volume 2 on page 122. He estimates that about 3000 were proofed and fall between the serial numbers 25000 and 28000. Wow, here on the forum are the lowest and highest serials known!
Dean


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
quote:Originally posted by Pancho

Fritz,
What is the source of the images you have posted regarding
"The German list for strange equipments from 1941..." ?
Are these pages from some sort of wartime 1941 book ?
Pancho
Pancho,
Prior to the outbreak of the war, the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Department) inaugurated a system for listing data on all known foreign weapons and equipment. This information, with illustrations where possible, was published in a series of loose-leaf books known as the Kennblätter Fremden Geräts (D.50 series) - Recognition Books for Foreign Equipments. These books were periodically amended after 1939 as captured weapons and equipment fell into German hands.
The D. 50 series consisted of fourteen volumes of which the following were concerned with weapons ( D.50/1 with 383 leafs ):


D.50/1 Handwaffen -- Handweapons , pistols, rifles and sub- machine guns
D.50/2 Maschinengewehre -- Machineguns
D.50/3 Werfer -- Mortars

D.50/4 Leichte Geschütze -- Light artillery
D.50/5 Schwere Geschütze -- Medium artillery
D.50/6 Schwerste Geschütze -- Heavy and super-heavy artillery
D.50/12 Kraftfahrzeuge -- Motor vehicles, tanks, ...
D.50/14 Pioniergerät,-- Engineer equipment- mines,grenades...



The Fremden Gerät designation system consisted of the German nomenclature for the weapon or equipment involved, and a group number for that particular weapon, both of which were followed by the initial letter of the country of origin. From the very start of World War II the Germans made the maximum use of almost every weapon that came into their possession. Normally the weapons were used with their own captured ammunition but in a few cases the Germans went to the extent of manufacturing more ammunition for them and in some cases re?bored some weapon types to conform to German calibres. Examples of the latter were the Soviet 7.62 cm and 8.5 cm anti-aircraft guns bored out to 8.8 cm as stocks of ammunition for this calibre were more readily available.
Weapons taken into service with the German armed forces
were identified by their Fremdes Gerät designation which was
also applied to the German-published workshop manuals and
spare parts relevant to each weapon. There were exceptions to
the system, one of which applied to the many Czech weapons
used by the German forces which had been impressed before the
Fremdes Gerät system was officially approved for service.
Another anomaly arose when troops in the field often referred to
their charges by their year of origin or model number, one
example is the French 7.5 cm FK 231 (f)(FK = Feldkanone –field gun-) which was often known as the 7.5 cm FK 97(f) . However, such colloquial designations were unofficial, even if they did appear in reports and Ordnance returns.

Fritz

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
quote:Originally posted by Pancho

Fritz,
What is the source of the images you have posted regarding
"The German list for strange equipments from 1941..." ?
Are these pages from some sort of wartime 1941 book ?
Pancho
Pancho,
Prior to the outbreak of the war, the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Department) inaugurated a system for listing data on all known foreign weapons and equipment. This information, with illustrations where possible, was published in a series of loose-leaf books known as the Kennblätter Fremden Geräts (D.50 series) - Recognition Books for Foreign Equipments. These books were periodically amended after 1939 as captured weapons and equipment fell into German hands.
The D. 50 series consisted of fourteen volumes of which the following were concerned with weapons ( D.50/1 with 383 leafs ):


D.50/1 Handwaffen -- Handweapons , pistols, rifles and sub- machine guns
D.50/2 Maschinengewehre -- Machineguns
D.50/3 Werfer -- Mortars

D.50/4 Leichte Geschütze -- Light artillery
D.50/5 Schwere Geschütze -- Medium artillery
D.50/6 Schwerste Geschütze -- Heavy and super-heavy artillery
D.50/12 Kraftfahrzeuge -- Motor vehicles, tanks, ...
D.50/14 Pioniergerät,-- Engineer equipment- mines,grenades...



The Fremden Gerät designation system consisted of the German nomenclature for the weapon or equipment involved, and a group number for that particular weapon, both of which were followed by the initial letter of the country of origin. From the very start of World War II the Germans made the maximum use of almost every weapon that came into their possession. Normally the weapons were used with their own captured ammunition but in a few cases the Germans went to the extent of manufacturing more ammunition for them and in some cases re?bored some weapon types to conform to German calibres. Examples of the latter were the Soviet 7.62 cm and 8.5 cm anti-aircraft guns bored out to 8.8 cm as stocks of ammunition for this calibre were more readily available.
Weapons taken into service with the German armed forces
were identified by their Fremdes Gerät designation which was
also applied to the German-published workshop manuals and
spare parts relevant to each weapon. There were exceptions to
the system, one of which applied to the many Czech weapons
used by the German forces which had been impressed before the
Fremdes Gerät system was officially approved for service.
Another anomaly arose when troops in the field often referred to
their charges by their year of origin or model number, one
example is the French 7.5 cm FK 231 (f)(FK = Feldkanone –field gun-) which was often known as the 7.5 cm FK 97(f) . However, such colloquial designations were unofficial, even if they did appear in reports and Ordnance returns.

Fritz

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Just to add to the information, here is my Unique 16 with WaA251. The serial number is 27944. This is the latest one I have seen and right at the end of the range for these pistols as listed in Col. Whittington's Volume 2 on page 122. He estimates that about 3000 were proofed and fall between the serial numbers 25000 and 28000. Wow, here on the forum are the lowest and highest serials known!
Dean


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26509 IS MY number
 
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