[DiehardWWII]

Hello,
Bought this Luger today, assumed it was a post war rework gun because several smaller numbers have been defaced but not renumbered, all the main numbers match. Now that I have identified potential 3 unusual markings or potential rework marks, I am unsure if it has been through multiple reworks and at what periods. Slide has undated chamber with SU over 25 next to a Nazi eagle on the right side. Left side is Crown over N with a main serial with a "." after, to me possibly indicating a duplicate or serial reissue. Barrel looks to be a S42 replacement barrel, numbered matching but with some eagle or symbol between the gauge numbers and the serial. Rear of frame back has another eagle with numbers or letters below. Looks like the gun has black widow grips and has a nice FXO mag. The gun is import marked under the barrel. Any help as to who and when this gun was reworked and how many times even would be appreciated. If it is a known variation, that would be helpful to know as well. I am not a total novice but there were so many things unique about this pistol that I bought it reasonably cheap in order to learn more. Please don't spare my feelings, it may just be a turd, but the extra markings I suspect tell a story.
Thanks,
Diehard

 

[DiehardWWII]

Closeup pics

Close-ups of the rear frame and barrel markings

Thanks,
Diehard

 

[Edward Tinker]

I can explain many of the markings, and some of them the time frame might be mixed.
First, it has all the hall marks of a east german DDR pistol

The Crown N would be a commercial marking
The SU25 is a depot marking - used for army rebuilds during the weimar to early nazi period
The byf is from 1941 and 1942 - so a replacement toggle

 

[4 Scale]

You might post photos of the inside of the grips and/or try the pin test to see if they are original - heat a pin to very hot, and if touched to the inside of the grip (causing melting or not) it will help indicate if they are original (do a search for pin test).

While some might consider this a "shooter", to me these mixed part reworks are among the most fascinating Luger examples. The evidence trail here suggests decades of continuous service. I often look at such pistols wishing they could talk, and then on learning information such as Ed's comments, realize they have. Congratulations.

 

[03man]

I believe Ed is on track, a late Weimar/early Nazi SU25 re-barrel; then taken into East German "Vopo" service.
I believe the swasticas in the small eagles are peened by the EG, and the peend or removed larger marking was the Vopo sunburst.

I really like the re-built, re-purposed pistols; they have history written all over them!

 

[bayoned]

I like it ! This pistol is a history book. And I probably would have picked it up as well.

 

[DiehardWWII]

Connect the dots for me

So here's my open issues:

I thought the SU25 was used between the wars as well and I believe the slide originates from a commercial pistol from that time frame given the crown N on one side and lacking the imperial proofs on the other. The spring on the right is straw also indicating the period of the slide. Yet, right next to the SU25, the gun has the Nazi eagle which I did not think occurred till 1939 in that location, and it was always associated with 2 of the 135 or 655 proofs with it. This gun has a lone Nazi Eagle.

Were the SU25 reworks done as late as 1939?

Where and who did these reworks?

Was the S42 replacement barrel done then or by East Germans?

Who proofed the back of the frame?

Incidentally I did not think the eagles looked pinged, looks more like the stamp jumped and its a shadow/double strike.

When did the Weimar slide get mated with the WWII lower, the serials do not appear to be quickly force matched, the slide and barrel appear to be arsenal matched to the lower number.

Thanks for the info so far, I too love pistols that tell some history, this one has some story remaining I suspect.

Thanks,
Diehard

 

[Vlim]

I don't believe it is a DDR VoPo. Looks indeed like an old commercial gun that got reworked into a military style. The peening is deliberately done to mask non matching numbers.

 

[mrerick]

It's hard to establish when the S/42 parts were used, but they were most likely installed during the major rework. This was Mauser's concealment code up until 1939. Replacement parts stocks were likely purchased by this time, and could be used anytime after that.

Parts for rework were purchased and stocked and sat in storage until needed. The E/135 Waa/135 and E/655 inspectors worked at the Mauser factory, and were responsible for accepting new firearms, not reworks done in the field.

i don't have the data on when the rework arsenal depot was active, but know that it's also possible that depots with storehouses full of S/42 parts could have been captured and used by the Russians and later East Germany as well. You would not toss out a part because of it's markings...

I don't see the Mauser hump on your frame, so it is from 1937 or earlier. The "byf" toggles were used during 1941 or 1942. I can't see above the chamber to identify a date stamp, or that one was removed. The side plate number location on the bottom is typically commercial in style.

I don't recognize the serif typeface design of the Su over 25, so unless someone else can identify it as correct it might just be someone with dies making something they think is interesting.

What you have is a mixed parts Luger. If it cycles and shoots well, you have gotten a great shooter. Enjoy!

 

[03man]

A few points-
-the luger does not have a slide, I think you mean the receiver
-the commercial receiver had no markings on the right side, so the SU25 and the eagle could have been added when the 42 barrel was installed, SU is a mark of Spandau Arsenal in Berlin
-I've never seen an eagle on the rear of the frame, the numbers under the eagle are quite odd
-one needs a good close up picture of the inside of the frame, front well area to ID the mfg, a better picture of the rear ears from the side would help too
-a good close up of the bottom of the chamber area and lug of the receiver would help too
-a straw ejector is pretty much meaningless for dating, they are too easily and often changed

A nice mystery luger, some more can be learned with more pictures.

 

[DiehardWWII]

abzug,
Thanks for those photos, I think that's the "missing link" I was looking for. Shows other proof of the use of SU25 during WWII linking some of the later style eagle proofs and the S/42 replacement parts. Thanks that helps!

I'll go and take some more internal photos of the frame and receiver.

Still hoping to understand the mark on the rear and still unsure if the gun was ultimately reworked again for the VOPO or if the frame and receiver were matched together by Spandau.

Thanks, pics to follow,
Diehard

 

[DiehardWWII]

Internals and close-ups

More pics as requested

Thanks,
Diehard