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Discussion Starter #1
Several references have been made regarding the two US Cartridge Counters numbered 22409.I believe this is an error. This tale is boring but bear with me while I stumble through the sequence.

I found 22409 at a gun show in Odessa TX in June 1970. It had the wrong grips, wrong magazine, sideplate #414, & re-blue. In spite of all the detracts, I was intrigued and traded for the gun. It still sits in my safe and has not gone through a "restoration".

In 1984-85, a dealer in Lugers from AZ advertised a 1902 Counter #22409 on his list in supposedly near mint condition. His responses to my questions were as follows: 1.Yes, it is all original. 2.Yes, it is near mint. 3.Yes, 22409 is the correct serial number. 4.The previous owner bought it from Springfield Arsenal.
At a gun show in Mesa AZ some months later, as I examined one of his 1920 alphabets made into a Lithuanian Contract, this dealer informed me he sold his 22409 to a collector in Europe.

At a Phoenix gun show sometime later, I encountered this dealer again, toting around one of his several 1899 Swiss Lugers. We did not discuss Cartridge Counters. What's the use? Anything he says or sells is questionable.

To my knowledge, the other 22409 has never surfaced again, no report by a collector in Europe, and none in the states. Personally, I believe it went back to the shop for a new number. These details have been related to very few people through the years, but are the basis for my opinion that there is only one 22409.

Richard (Luger fan ever since Datig's first edition)

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You most likely have hit the nail on the head with your assumptions. Serious money could be wagered that the duplicate went back within 24 hours and received its newly discovered serial number.
 

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This, and yet half the Luger community continues to march forward in lock step taking crumbs from the table of one of the most outrageous frauds and scoundrels one can imagine.
 

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Hi Richard,

I would like to hear more about those 1899 Swiss lugers...

Can you make me a little smarter...?

I see on an old List that a # 39 1899 Swiss luger was being offered for sale for $ 25K...in the 1997 timeframe...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Pete,
I heard about the #29 but it is not the same gun I examined, time-frame is off by a few years too. No one has a precise total on the 1899s but consensus among collectors that keep track is "a few" or "several". Some shops don't publish production figures so a bit of guess-work comes into play.

Years back, Lugers were more plentiful and many of us had the opportunity to examine and compare early and original guns that were available. Eventually, we came to recognize the progression of change in the finish of DWM Lugers. If the finish doesn't look right for the production period, or if the digits or other markings are "off", the antenna goes up. So it was with the 1899.
Remember, finish has two parts: the metal surface being one, and the color and type of finish being the other. It is very difficult to get both exactly right (although the practioners are getting pretty good). Best test is still a side-by-side comparision in the sun with a known piece, but that gets difficult.
I will email some additional info.
Regards, RC
 

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Richard,
Did you get my email? Trying to re-establish communications since we both have moved!
Ron
 
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Richard, Thanks for the info I have heard stories about this character but never heard one as straight as yours.

Pistol Pete
 

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"So this is the one listed above..or the real 22409?"

Makes no difference. Until you can get both pistols together to compare them, that serial number is well and truly poisoned.

"What does 'style' mean?"

It is auction-house-ese for "It looks like a Cartridge Counter, caveat emptor."

--Dwight
 

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What Dwight said. I know the guy and the gun in the first post in this thread (from 2005)...they are both the real deal.
 

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I am confused...how can both be real?? should we get this one for a bargain 10K...or pass?
 

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Hi Mark, You have misinterpreted Ron's post. He was not saying that both guns are real, just that both the gun in the first post and the writer of the first post are "the real deal".
Norm
 

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Mark, Eric posted a link of fancy Lugers in Lugerforum.com. Why not register there take a look before bidding on this one? This RIA one still have some fun. Converting a gun into this shape must not be easy. It will be interesting to see it works or not in range.
 

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OK I am passing on this oddball..thanks:)
 

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Passing is a good choice.

Here is the photo of the gun in the first post (link in first post outdated and doesn't work).
 

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Hey Mark,

Since you have taken an interest in Russian Lugers, here is a photo of a Russian carbine and a copy of a sales ad back in-the-day when Ralph Shattuck was peddling it :
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Wow...and these will be kicking around until judgement day!!! Note to me: dont Buy Russian carbines...got it:)

My partner and I plan to come Louisville if folks want to see some of our items:)
 
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