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Variations - Death Head Stampings...

42K views 121 replies 19 participants last post by  Njb 
#1 · (Edited)
Examples of various DH stampings I have noticed in the past 10-12 years :
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.
 
#5 ·
Scott,
I am not sure this is a totally correct answer, but I think it is because all known chamber marked DH Lugers are Imperial era and there is no known tie to any Third Reich organizations...in fact there is no known direct tie to any military organization. At the latest I suspect that the guns could be associated with the Weimar era but very unlikely that it extends to Nazi/Third Reich use.
Ron
 
#7 ·
One has to wonder why the DH would be "hidden" on the M 96....

I wholly agree that the DH is Imperial/Weimar para military connected.

Nazi's had plenty of DHs on their uniforms and badges, but pistols?
 
#9 ·
Very interesting, a little death's head on the barrel.
But wow! another good "story" to go with it.

Unfortunately pistol has so many special "markings" it looks like a comic strip.
 
#10 ·
I am thinking some of those deathsheads in the earlier posts are fakes, some are quite cartoon looking.

Many years ago I had a rework K98K that had been built out of an Imperial GEW98 with a scrubbed receiver and new made (at that time) barrel. Fully commercial proofed and dated under the barrel, I think it was 12/38. It was an ERMA marked barrel which had several waffenamts on the barrel, in addition to the comercial proofs under the barrel. It also had a Lazy S deathshead, stamped under the original blueing, and an SS2 deathshead stamped after the blueing on the left rear of the barrel just above the woodline. Other rework K98k's built from GEW98's have shown up over the years with similar marks. Mine was serial 2004, no letter, and it was a new number, not the Imperial number. Every part was matched to that number and the level of workmanship on the whole rifle was astounding. They had even patched in a piece of wood where the lower sling swivel used to be and other than the color difference you could not feel any difference in the wood it was fitted so well. Getting rid of that weapon years ago was a major collecting mistake in my life.
 
#11 ·
Pete, Some observations on these marks. Of the ones that I believe are period, (early 1920's) all share a commonalty. The marks are all 90 degrees to the axis of the bore. They're all on the left-top-front of the receiver. They all have a lazy "S" over the skull. The lazy "S" is sometimes used to represent infinity. This symbol would then represent, "Always Death". A good motto to use if you're hunting traitors. I believe these pistols maybe associated with the Freikorps who were armed with leftover World War I equipment. This is the last common point. The pistols are almost all war dated P-08's.
Pat
 
#20 ·
Hmmm "early 1920's"..."infinity"..."always death"..."hunting traitors"..."Freikorps"... Any evidence to support all that?

A question. If the "lazy s" deathshead symbol is Imperial, Weimar or Freikorps - how can this same stamped marking show up applied (post manufacture) to Nazi era produced, coded and dated rifle barrels attached to Nazi era reworked rifles?
 
#12 ·
Hi Pat,

No argument about your commonalities.

It is also easy to discount those markings that look like the art-work of tatoo-artists.

I would also tend to discount the cartoonish-looking "Baby DH" markings too.

Unfortunately (and as with the crossed Russian rifles Lugers) there are so many faked DH markings, it cast suspicions upon all such markings and the real ones might not stand-out, anymore.
 
#16 ·
How is it that the Imperial German, Weimar and Nazi era rifle collecting community has done evidence based studies on this subject and are so certain that the origin of the same Dhd markings on rifles is Nazi? How is it that the pistol collecting community ignores these findings? What evidence has the pistol collecting community put forward to debunk the rifle collecting communities findings? It seems that this question has been repeatedly asked and sufficiently answered. As a collector of rifles and pistols I find this scenario amazing. Seems a case study in myopic research.
 
#27 ·
Hi Scott, As a somewhat disinterested observer, it seems to me that the answers to your three rhetorical questions lie in the fact that, to my knowledge, all the lazy S/death head markings so far observed have been on Imperial Lugers, not Third Reich. If as you suggest, the origin of these markings is Nazi, these findings would be reversed.
Regards, Norm
 
#17 ·
Scott, To say the deathshead is only a Nazi symbol is a bit hyperoptic. History is the only evidence needed to contradict this idea.
Pat
 
#18 ·
Curious to know where I stated that the deathshead is "only" a Nazi symbol? My words are quite clear and I didn't state this.

I would say that your mistaken conversion of my words is emblematic of the epic research failure of the pistol collecting community as it pertains to this subject.
 
#19 ·
Still looking for answers to the following questions:

How is it that the Imperial German, Weimar and Nazi era rifle collecting community has done evidence based studies on this subject and are so certain that the origin of the same Dhd markings on rifles is Nazi?

How is it that the pistol collecting community ignores these findings?

What evidence has the pistol collecting community put forward to debunk the rifle collecting communities findings?
 
#21 ·
Scott,
From the tone of your statements I am pretty sure your mind is irrevocably made up on this topic, so I am equally sure there is precious little argument that can be made here that will change what you think. I can only offer that it is not unlikely that the "/" symbol stamps were still in circulation at the advent of the early Nazi era. Consequently it was an immediate and convenient choice to identify weapons produced or reworked for these units. It is also likely that it subsequently morphed into the "ϟϟ/" configuration as the sig runes were adopted by the SS
Conversely, I am at a loss to rationalize that the use of this symbol on early Nazi weapons/parts completely negates its possible use by preceding Imperial, Weimar or Freikorps units. The "/" was merely a specific (alas unknown :)) unit adaptation of the deathshead symbol that had been in use since ancient times.
 
#22 ·
I've raised this point before elsewhere on this topic and will raise it again in this context:
If the DH/lazy S is to be associated with Imperial, Freikorps, or Weimar arms why does it not appear on weapons of those periods other other than P.08s ? Logically it should appear on other types of small arms of those periods but it does not.
The marking does appear on G98 rifles reconfigured to K98k specs in the late 1930s/early 1940s (based on barrel dating) which are also SS-marked. The marking also appears on S84/98/III bayonets not produced in the Imperial era.
 
#23 ·
All good questions , and knowing nothing of rifles I have no opinion or explanation of same.

I'll offer for consideration that the death's head does appear on vehicles that are easily dated to the Weimar era via period photos.

Wilhelm II owned/wore a fur helmet or "hat" with a very large death's head on it; and at least one '30's era Japanese unit adopted the death's head as a symbol on their flag and armband.

It is not surprising to me to see or hear of SS related items with the deaths head applied.

But Scott, why the "venom" in your posts toward ignorant pistol collectors?
You seem personally affronted or injured in some way- maybe I'm missing the back story?
 
#24 ·
Scott, I, like Ron, sense a certain amount of rigidity in your posts. Your own post #16 answers your question in post #18. In the first two sentences of #16, you ask why the pistol community questions the rifle communities findings that the deathshead symbol is a Nazi mark. This indicates, at least to me, that you side with the rifle community.
As far as proof that this symbol is associated with the Free-Corps, I'll sight one source. The book, The German Reichswehr, Uniforms and equipment of the German Army, 1919 to 1932 by Adolf Schlicht and Jurgen Kraus. In a chapter on the FreiKorps it shows a picture of a FreiKorps Unit in a vehicle with this symbol painted on the radiator.
Pat
 
#25 ·
Gentlemen,
In defense of the "rifle" faction I don't think they dispute the use of the deathshead by Imperial, Weimar or Freikorps units. It is the "/" marking that is the bone of contention. They wish to drag its use to a later Nazi era based on its presence on some Nazi era rifles and bayonets. However, the same rationale can be applied to the earlier era as that exact symbol appears on Weimar holsters, not just Lugers. And I notice that the use of that symbol on types of Nazi era small arms other than a few rifles and bayonets is conspicuously absent. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. :)
 
#29 ·
Yep, I have one, I have seen one other and heard of a third one. More scarce than the surviving Lugers, possibly because leather isn't quite as durable.:) It is a pain in the patoot to try to photograph but I will give it another try in the next few days. There is no question as to it being Weimar as it has the modification for the cleaning rod added in the top. It also has a Weimar style unit marking with the "/" but I don't recall what it is and as I remember it wouldn't be associated with a DH type unit...as with many things of that era it was "re-purposed" :).
 
#32 ·
The presence of an S/DH stamp on a Weimar era holster does not necessarily indicate application prior to 1933....could have been applied later. The G98s (and very few K98As) reworked to K98k configuration with similar generally accepted by the rifle folks with as SS-rework attributed were all initially built in the Imperial era but were rebuilt in the late 1930s/early 1940s.
 
#33 ·
Granted, but if you want to go there, the presence of a S/DH stamp on a rifle or barrel only indicates that someone at sometime had a stamp and used it...could have been applied much later than 1933...the same goes for the stamp on a Luger, holster, bayonet or chamber pot. We can go on for several more years arguing the veracity of what the collecting community has observed and in the end, without documentation, it still boils down to empirical evidence and "expert" opinion. :)
 
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