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so Scott needs to acknowledge that he has no solid grounds for his assertions, just as I have no solid grounds for mine. We each have only our own opinions, observations and research and neither of us has the right to expect that just because we say it is so, it is so.[/COLOR]
Ron - the solid grounds for my assertions reside in the evidence developed long ago by the rifle collecting community.

Perhaps the real questions are these. Does the detailed (part by part & marking by marking) study of German Imperial, Weimar and Nazi rifles inform the study of German Imperial, Weimar and Nazi pistols? Under what circumstances should either group ignore each others findings?
 
RE: DH holsters
Do we have a source for the pic in post 63? Any indication of where original taken?
A quick check of the sparse print literature on these holsters provided a photo showing crossed bones protruding slightly from behind the skull; text reference to the stamp appearing on either the flap or back of the holster; attribution to the SS-TV (based on what not indicated) and no information as to other markings. Anybody have further information?
 
Craig,
I think you are correct about the slight protrusion of the bones behind the skull...I was going by memory (bad idea). All of the circled skull holsters that I have seen (at least 5 or 6) have had the marking on the front flap to the right side of the closure strap, just like the one under discussion.
 
Ron - the solid grounds for my assertions reside in the evidence developed long ago by the rifle collecting community.

Perhaps the real questions are these. Does the detailed (part by part & marking by marking) study of German Imperial, Weimar and Nazi rifles inform the study of German Imperial, Weimar and Nazi pistols? Under what circumstances should either group ignore each others findings?
Scott,
Will you please point us(me) at the source/reference/book for this study; I don't think pistol collectors are privy to the body of info you refer to. I certainly know nothing of German military rifles; except that they have been faked/humped/boosted for years.

Rifle=Pistol, not necessarily, IMO.

Since we or, in this case, I don't know what the body of rifle information is or says, I am truly ignorant of those facts.
This does not mean I would ignore them if privy to same.
 
Craig,
I think you are correct about the slight protrusion of the bones behind the skull...I was going by memory (bad idea). All of the circled skull holsters that I have seen (at least 5 or 6) have had the marking on the front flap to the right side of the closure strap, just like the one under discussion.
Here are a few photos I have in my file.
 

Attachments

Scott, I believe there is just as much evidence that there are P08 pistols with lazy S death head marks that have never been rwk by Nazi rebuild stations. A search of this forum will turn-up a few.

George, The deaths head on the holster flap re-enforces my theory that it maybe a talisman, meaning, "this holster hold death".
Pat
 
Scott,
Will you please point us(me) at the source/reference/book for this study; I don't think pistol collectors are privy to the body of info you refer to. I certainly know nothing of German military rifles; except that they have been faked/humped/boosted for years.

Rifle=Pistol, not necessarily, IMO.

Since we or, in this case, I don't know what the body of rifle information is or says, I am truly ignorant of those facts.
This does not mean I would ignore them if privy to same.
Don,

Basic research involves conducting a few goggle searches using terms such as – “German ss rifle”, “ss death's head G98 K98 rifle”, “lazy ss deaths head mauser rifle” , “ss death's head mauser rifle” , etc. etc. Follow links to various rifle or weapon specific forums. Search these forums and study the discussions and photos. It will take time but well worth the journey.

As to reference books about SS rifles and related markings – to date I have not found one devoted to this subject. Over the years several have touched on it. Some in more detail than others and some more successfully than others. Unfortunately, all I am aware of have to varying degrees been tainted by spurious specimens and limited data. This combination has led to some flawed observations and conclusions. In my experience the single most reputable publication on German military rifles is the Military Rifle Journal (MRJ). It has proven to be a meticulously researched, non-political, product with no agenda beyond accuracy and truth.

Scott
 
All legit only if you ignore knowledge of the subject from the rifle world.

Scott
Scott.
I totally agree if you substitute the word "assumptions" for the word "knowledge". All of the "rifle world" conclusions are drawn from observations and analysis, not documentation. All of the conclusions drawn by the Luger fraternity are likewise based on observations and analysis within historical context. We both have our bias based on our research and history. I do not reject your position without giving it careful consideration, as I do not wave off other's opinions, but as I have noted on other debates on Luger matters, I find your opinions compelling but not conclusive.
Ron
 
Ron: Beg to differ on your statement that "All of the 'rifle world' conclusions are drawn from observations..." Perhaps true of the whole SS rifles business but by no means true of "rifle world" conclusions in general any more than true of "pistol world" conclusions in general.
 
Craig,
Agree, a broad generalization if taken out of context, but I was specifically referring to the DH commentary. We need to remember to keep things in context.
 
Symbology

"Lazy S"= rune": nothing equivalent found in rune tables on Wikipedia.de
"Lazy S" = Wolfsangel: nothing equivalent found under Wolfsangel on Wikipedia.de
"Flattened M = rune": nothing equivalent found in rune tables on Wikipedia.de
The forgoing are explanations advanced in Wacker & Götz, Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel

"Lazy S" = infinity: True of symbol as initially introduced in 18thC. but by 20th evolved into "closed" version (8 on side and stretched). Form of symbol used in Germany ca. 1900-1945?

Given the propensity of the SS to invent (and distort) things to suit its purposes I suppose that the two symbols could have been invented by them but somebody more familiar with SS mythology (for lack of a better term) than I have will have to produce some evidence.
 
Monographs treating G98 to K98k style DH conversions arranged in order of publication; latest known editions

Law, Richard. Backbone of the Wehrmacht. Coburg, 1993, Collector Grade Publications, 367 pp. illus. ISBN 0-88935-129-2

Wacker, Albrecht. Das System Adalbert: der K98k. Düsseldorf, Barett, 1993, 280 pp. illus. ISBN 3-924753-57-1

Wacker & Görtz. Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel, Herne, VS-Books, 2005, 440 pp. illus., ISBN 3-932077-10-5

Karem & Steves, Karabiner 98k v.1, n.p., Third Party Press, 2012, 588 pp. illus. No ISBN.

Karem and Steves contains detailed analysis of a number of specimens.

So far there is no monograph dealing exclusively with SS rifles.

As far as fakery goes, IMO at this point in time there is probably just as much fakery of WW2 German rifles in general as there is of P.08s as a type although historically I think elaborate fakery of P.08s began earlier than that of rifles.
 
Monographs treating G98 to K98k style DH conversions arranged in order of publication; latest known editions

Law, Richard. Backbone of the Wehrmacht. Coburg, 1993, Collector Grade Publications, 367 pp. illus. ISBN 0-88935-129-2

Wacker, Albrecht. Das System Adalbert: der K98k. Düsseldorf, Barett, 1993, 280 pp. illus. ISBN 3-924753-57-1

Wacker & Görtz. Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel, Herne, VS-Books, 2005, 440 pp. illus., ISBN 3-932077-10-5

Karem & Steves, Karabiner 98k v.1, n.p., Third Party Press, 2012, 588 pp. illus. No ISBN.

Karem and Steves contains detailed analysis of a number of specimens.

So far there is no monograph dealing exclusively with SS rifles.

As far as fakery goes, IMO at this point in time there is probably just as much fakery of WW2 German rifles in general as there is of P.08s as a type although historically I think elaborate fakery of P.08s began earlier than that of rifles.
Thanks for the listing, I have BBOTW, so I'll give that one a read on the subject.

On fakery, you are likely correct; as there was more $$ to be made for the same or similar effort in boosting a Luger vs. a rifle; maybe not so much anymore.
 
The most common form of K98k fakery has always been renumbering bolts to match but with the ready availability of reproduction stamps and the rise in interest and prices more elaborate work is now being done especially with snipers. The fakirs follow the money.

K98k research has come a long way since BBOTW and I would not recommend it as a sole source.
 
Exactly!

Wondering if any documentation specifically associating or defining E/F, K, C or L as Police has been found?
A belated answer to this query:

I asked J. Wotka, senior US German police specialist, about documentation of what are generally accerpted as Pol acceptances; herewith (with his permission) his reply:

"... The sole written documentation associating the E/L,C,F,K,B, etc. markings with the police was a letter from the Mauser factory that Whittington received in 1968 or 1969 that stated that the marking indicated use by the German police in WWII. I have a copy. That is all. I have never found any reference to the marking in any of the hundreds or more pages of original material I secured from the national archives and purchased myself. All association is circumstantial. The Prussians adopted the sear safety for their Lugers. Banner Lugers have sear safeties., ergo Banner Lugers with sear safeties were used by the German police. Ergo, all other weapons with those acceptance stamps were used by the police. Sort of like RSHA Walthers. No direct correlation; only guns displaying the same characteristics were found on the list of Walthers issued to specific RSHA officers and even then just a couple actually."
 
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