[Olefogey]

Hi Guys,
Thought you guys might want to see an early Walther and its little pigskin holster.

Download Attachment: W
alther Model 1 002.jpg
295.86*KB

This pistol is actually about 95% blue, but the colors show up bad. Any mottling of the color is actually oil on the surface.
Download Attachment: Walther Model 1 003.jpg
243.29*KB

Download Attachment: Walther Model 1 005.jpg
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Download Attachment: Walther Model 1 001.jpg
295.04*KB

Do like those sneakers?? )

Dave

 

[sauerfan]

Dave,


Just came across you post. I am wondering, why nobody seems to have an interest in your little but exciting Walther model 1. EXCITING, because it seems to me, it has on the right side of the slide proof marking crown/crown/U and not crown/N. Interesting also: the slide legend on the left side. There you have:

"D.R.G.M. IN- UND AUSLANDSPATENT ANG.", that means, German and Foreign patent pending. On later model 1s you don't have the "pending" advise.

Dave, as some people are currently discussing the true date of introducing the early Walther models (I don't believe in the 1909/1910 stories), can you please take a look on the gun and answer my question:

does it have crown/crown/U OR crown/N proofs?


Best regards

Martin

 

[sauerfan]

Dave,


Just came across you post. I am wondering, why nobody seems to have an interest in your little but exciting Walther model 1. EXCITING, because it seems to me, it has on the right side of the slide proof marking crown/crown/U and not crown/N. Interesting also: the slide legend on the left side. There you have:

"D.R.G.M. IN- UND AUSLANDSPATENT ANG.", that means, German and Foreign patent pending. On later model 1s you don't have the "pending" advise.

Dave, as some people are currently discussing the true date of introducing the early Walther models (I don't believe in the 1909/1910 stories), can you please take a look on the gun and answer my question:

does it have crown/crown/U OR crown/N proofs?


Best regards

Martin

 

[Greg G]

I must have missed the original post or maybe I was just jealous of it. Nice Mod.1 rig. I wish I had a nice one in my collection. I haven't had a decent one come my way.

 

[Greg G]

I must have missed the original post or maybe I was just jealous of it. Nice Mod.1 rig. I wish I had a nice one in my collection. I haven't had a decent one come my way.

 

[Olefogey]

Martin,

Thanks for looking at (to me), my little gem.. Yes it does have crown/crown/u proof on the right hand side of the slide.

Dave

 

[Olefogey]

Martin,

Thanks for looking at (to me), my little gem.. Yes it does have crown/crown/u proof on the right hand side of the slide.

Dave

 

[sauerfan]

Dave,

what you have there is more than just a nice little pistol – it's a kind of a "Rosetta's stone". Let me explain this:

recently, I had a discussion with a Walther collector showing me his Walther model 4 transitional, which Fritz presented here:

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10323

This very early Walther 4 has crown/N proof. I asked the very advanced Walther collector, when it was made. He said: probably in 1910 – I replied: this can't be because of the crown/N markings.

Yesterday, I had a similar discussion with a German collector on a German forum. We also discussed the introducing date of the model 4 and the model 1. He argued with literature (Rankin, Marschall), where shall be stated (I don't own the books):

1/ model 1 was manufactured only in 1909
2/ model 4 came out in 1910.
3/ all of the early models would have crown/N markings.

OK, so far for the literature. As I am a kind of a "Doubting Thomas" I searched for some facts which could strengthen my "can't be" opinion.

And here we go: FACTS:

Facts about the model 1</u>


1/ Walther filed in German patent office a patent application on August 07, 1909. The resulting patent No. 235 944 was granted in June 1911. Therefore, before June 1911 existed only a patent application, but no granted patent.

A production and sales of the model 1 before the application date August 07, 1909 can be ruled out, because this would have destroyed the novelty of the patent, therefore, no patent would have been granted.


2/ your very interesting pistol, Dave. SN is 2670, should I be correct. The slide legend is most helpful to determine the manufacturing date. Slide legend is:

„D.R.G.M. IN- UND AUSLANDSPATENT ANG." = DRGM, DOMESTIC AND FOREIGN PATENT PENDING

("ANG." is the abbreviation of "angemeldet" = applied or pending)

So, your's was made in a time, when the patents (German and foreign) were pending. Which foreign patents do we have?
A/ Austrian patent No. 54,841, application date May 23, 1910.
B/ US patent No. 991,398, application date June 9, 1910

accordingly, your pistol must have been made after May 23, 1910, at least.

3/ the proofs

your's has crown/crown/U proofs, while later ones do have crown/N. Why? The reason is simple: On September 01, 1911 the Zella-Mehlis proof house started with using the crown/N proof marking (Suhl followed on April 1, 1912). This was mentioned in a short article published in the journal "Das Schießwesen" published on May 23, 1912, page 20:

Download Attachment: Schiesswesen1912-Krone-N_675x768.jpg
181.43KB

Accordingly, we can narrow down the production time of your pistol in the time frame May 23, 1910 to September 01, 1911. Because of the low SN I'd estimate production time ...well, somewhen in early/mid 1911, I'd guess (hopefully the only guess in this thread).

4/ later versions of the model 1

later variations do have other slide legends, now with "Patent", that means, with indication to a granted patent. All these must have been produced after June 1911. As the later variations do have crown/N proofs, they must have been made after September 01, 1911. Moreover, I found two pistols sold recently on Hermann-Historica:



Walther 1, SN 26,850, „Walther’s Patent“:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm49.pl?f=NR&c=40485&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat49_S.txt


Walther 1, SN 28,401 , „Walther’s Patent“:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm49.pl?f=NR&c=40054&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat49_S.txt

These two pistols are interesting in so far, as they do have Austrian proofs. And as the Austrians indicated the year of the proof, we know now, that these two were proofed (and probably manufactured) in 1914.


Conclusion: Walther's model 1 must have been produced starting not before 1910. Production ended not before 1914.


5/ In the book by Gerhard Bock „Moderne Faustfeuer-Waffen“ (modern pistols), issued by printing house Neudamm in 1911 (foreword was written in May 1911), the name Walther does not appear at all – although Bock describes thoroughly all pistols of the time. The Mauser 1910 is mentioned – but not any Walther.


Interesting enough, Gene Gangarosa, Jr. wrote comparable statements in his 1999 published book "The Walther Handgun Story" . He points on the fact, that the first appearance of the model 1 is in a 1911 dated Alfa catalog. See here, where also all different variations of slide legends are shown:

http://www.whog.org/originals/Walther_Model_1a.htm

Next:

Facts about the model 4</u>

1/As mentioned above, all model 4s do have crown/N proof markings. Therefore, they must have been made after September 01, 1911.

2/. A German patent 256,606 dealing with features of the model 4 was applied (filed) on October 21, 1911. This patent was granted in January or February 1913.

As all model 4s do have a PATENT indication and no PATENT PENDING advise, all model 4s must have been made after January/February 1913.

3/ In a "1914 – 1915" dated catalog No. 24 of the company Genschow & Co (=Geco), page 39, the Walther 4 is shown (maybe for the first time?) with the headline: „Neuestes verbessertes Modell 1914“ (Newest improved model 1914)! Shown there is an early transitional model as presented by Fritz (see above).


Download Attachment: WaltherII_IV_Genschow_Katolog24_1914-15_1024x533.jpg
139.28KB

Interesting: the "old model 1" is still offered.....

Conclusion: the model 4 must have been made
- not before October 21, 1911
- (probably) not before January 1913
- probably started in 1913 or even in 1914.

Interesting: Gangarosa came to a similar conclusion:

http://www.whog.org/originals/Model_4.htm

Well, the 1915 date seems to be too late, because of the Geco catalog of 1914. But an introduction date of 1910 "can't be".

Regards

Martin

 

[sauerfan]

Dave,

what you have there is more than just a nice little pistol – it's a kind of a "Rosetta's stone". Let me explain this:

recently, I had a discussion with a Walther collector showing me his Walther model 4 transitional, which Fritz presented here:

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10323

This very early Walther 4 has crown/N proof. I asked the very advanced Walther collector, when it was made. He said: probably in 1910 – I replied: this can't be because of the crown/N markings.

Yesterday, I had a similar discussion with a German collector on a German forum. We also discussed the introducing date of the model 4 and the model 1. He argued with literature (Rankin, Marschall), where shall be stated (I don't own the books):

1/ model 1 was manufactured only in 1909
2/ model 4 came out in 1910.
3/ all of the early models would have crown/N markings.

OK, so far for the literature. As I am a kind of a "Doubting Thomas" I searched for some facts which could strengthen my "can't be" opinion.

And here we go: FACTS:

Facts about the model 1</u>


1/ Walther filed in German patent office a patent application on August 07, 1909. The resulting patent No. 235 944 was granted in June 1911. Therefore, before June 1911 existed only a patent application, but no granted patent.

A production and sales of the model 1 before the application date August 07, 1909 can be ruled out, because this would have destroyed the novelty of the patent, therefore, no patent would have been granted.


2/ your very interesting pistol, Dave. SN is 2670, should I be correct. The slide legend is most helpful to determine the manufacturing date. Slide legend is:

„D.R.G.M. IN- UND AUSLANDSPATENT ANG." = DRGM, DOMESTIC AND FOREIGN PATENT PENDING

("ANG." is the abbreviation of "angemeldet" = applied or pending)

So, your's was made in a time, when the patents (German and foreign) were pending. Which foreign patents do we have?
A/ Austrian patent No. 54,841, application date May 23, 1910.
B/ US patent No. 991,398, application date June 9, 1910

accordingly, your pistol must have been made after May 23, 1910, at least.

3/ the proofs

your's has crown/crown/U proofs, while later ones do have crown/N. Why? The reason is simple: On September 01, 1911 the Zella-Mehlis proof house started with using the crown/N proof marking (Suhl followed on April 1, 1912). This was mentioned in a short article published in the journal "Das Schießwesen" published on May 23, 1912, page 20:

Download Attachment: Schiesswesen1912-Krone-N_675x768.jpg
181.43KB

Accordingly, we can narrow down the production time of your pistol in the time frame May 23, 1910 to September 01, 1911. Because of the low SN I'd estimate production time ...well, somewhen in early/mid 1911, I'd guess (hopefully the only guess in this thread).

4/ later versions of the model 1

later variations do have other slide legends, now with "Patent", that means, with indication to a granted patent. All these must have been produced after June 1911. As the later variations do have crown/N proofs, they must have been made after September 01, 1911. Moreover, I found two pistols sold recently on Hermann-Historica:



Walther 1, SN 26,850, „Walther’s Patent“:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm49.pl?f=NR&c=40485&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat49_S.txt


Walther 1, SN 28,401 , „Walther’s Patent“:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm49.pl?f=NR&c=40054&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat49_S.txt

These two pistols are interesting in so far, as they do have Austrian proofs. And as the Austrians indicated the year of the proof, we know now, that these two were proofed (and probably manufactured) in 1914.


Conclusion: Walther's model 1 must have been produced starting not before 1910. Production ended not before 1914.


5/ In the book by Gerhard Bock „Moderne Faustfeuer-Waffen“ (modern pistols), issued by printing house Neudamm in 1911 (foreword was written in May 1911), the name Walther does not appear at all – although Bock describes thoroughly all pistols of the time. The Mauser 1910 is mentioned – but not any Walther.


Interesting enough, Gene Gangarosa, Jr. wrote comparable statements in his 1999 published book "The Walther Handgun Story" . He points on the fact, that the first appearance of the model 1 is in a 1911 dated Alfa catalog. See here, where also all different variations of slide legends are shown:

http://www.whog.org/originals/Walther_Model_1a.htm

Next:

Facts about the model 4</u>

1/As mentioned above, all model 4s do have crown/N proof markings. Therefore, they must have been made after September 01, 1911.

2/. A German patent 256,606 dealing with features of the model 4 was applied (filed) on October 21, 1911. This patent was granted in January or February 1913.

As all model 4s do have a PATENT indication and no PATENT PENDING advise, all model 4s must have been made after January/February 1913.

3/ In a "1914 – 1915" dated catalog No. 24 of the company Genschow & Co (=Geco), page 39, the Walther 4 is shown (maybe for the first time?) with the headline: „Neuestes verbessertes Modell 1914“ (Newest improved model 1914)! Shown there is an early transitional model as presented by Fritz (see above).


Download Attachment: WaltherII_IV_Genschow_Katolog24_1914-15_1024x533.jpg
139.28KB

Interesting: the "old model 1" is still offered.....

Conclusion: the model 4 must have been made
- not before October 21, 1911
- (probably) not before January 1913
- probably started in 1913 or even in 1914.

Interesting: Gangarosa came to a similar conclusion:

http://www.whog.org/originals/Model_4.htm

Well, the 1915 date seems to be too late, because of the Geco catalog of 1914. But an introduction date of 1910 "can't be".

Regards

Martin

 

[Olefogey]

Martin,

That was an outstanding piece of research!! I have filed it in my archives!! I'm glad my "little gem" proved to be such a "Rosetta Stone". It is amazing how one little item can help reveal info not previously known and prove writers wrong. Great work!!
Regards,

Dave

 

[Mark]

Martin,

Very impressive research!

Thanks!

Mark

 

[donmaus]

Martin,

Not only are you the possessor of several "Rosetta Stones," you obviously have an eye for them elsewhere. I have been using the Gangarosa book as a source for my brief discussion in my book of Walther M4, PP and PPK pistols used by the German police. Based on your convincing evidence, I have changed the date of introduction of the M4 to 1914. Thanks for your research.

 

[Jan C Still]

Martin
Outstanding knowledge and research!
Jan

 

[Ron Wood]

Martin,
That is a super bit of research and analysis! I am always impressed by the level of dedication exhibited by the members of this forum, and this is just another fine example of a properly conducted and presented discussion. Thank you.

 

[Edward Tinker]

I have made this a sticky (I know some folks never read them, but at least they are always att he top of the thread to find later)

 

[sauerfan]

Gentlemen,

thank you very much for your friendly words. It was real FUN to me to make and to present this little research.

Dave,

can you please post more detailed photos? A photo showing the crown/crown/U proof would be very helpful. Also, a close-up of the slide legend would be nice.


Don,

to be honest: when you mentioned "Rosetta's stone" for the first time some months ago, I did not have any idea, what you were talking about. Thanks to wikipedia, I know now...

Ed,

thanks for making this threat a sticky. A good idea, for my opinion.

To all:

just out of curiosity: are there any other Walther 1 with first variation of slide legend out there to present here? It would be nice to get more precise info about how many first variations are there having crown/crown/U proofs.

If you own one or have seen one, please post here:

1/serial number
2/ type of proofs. Crown/crown/U or crown/N.
3/ variation of slide legend
4/ ANY model 1 having Austrian or Czech proofs – please indicate the year of proof.


Also, I liked to know, if there are any second variations having crown/crown/U proofs.


For better understanding, here are the five variations of slide legends:

Slide legend, first variation:

WALTHER'S SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE CAL. 6.35
D.R.G.M. IN-& AUSLANDSPATENT ANG.


Slide legend, second variation:

WALTHER'S SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE CAL. 6.35
D.R.P. & AUSLANDSPATENTE.


slide legend, third variation:

SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE CAL. 6.35
WALTHER'S-PATENT – WALTHER


slide legend, fourth variation:

SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE CAL. 6.35
PATENT

slide legend, fifth variation:

SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE CAL. 6.35.
WALTHER'S-PATENT – WALTHER

Regards

Martin

 

[Vlim]

Hi Martin,

I browsed some period reference works and found these:
-Gerhard Bock, 2nd edition of 'Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen', 1922. He mentions the Walther pistols, a small Walther ad in the back of the book. But no dates.
-Richard Mahrholdt, "Waffen-Lexicon", 1937. States that Walther produced it's first selfloading pistol in 1908. Probably the source of the confusion.
-Richard Marhholdt, "Waffen-Lexicon", 1957. Same reference, but also states 4 additional models were constructed before 1914. He states:

-Walther model 1, 6,35, 1908.
-Walther model 2, 6,35, 1909
-Walther model 3, 7,65, 1910
-Walther model 4, 7,65, 1910
-Walther model 5, 6,35, 1913
-Walther model 6, 9, 1915
-Walther model 7, 6,35, 1917

 

[Olefogey]

Martin,

I am using a cheap camera so I can't get very clear closeup pictures. I will try to load three.....

Download Attachment: IMG_0901.JPG
152.33KB

Download Attachment: IMG_0902.JPG
160.8KB

Download Attachment: IMG_0903.JPG
155.96KB

Here they are, but they aren't much better than the originals.

Dave

 

[sauerfan]

Dave,

thanks for posting new photos. The proofs can be seen now much clearer.

Vlim,


this is interesting! Seems, the 1908 fairy tale was created VERY long ago.

Regards

Martin

 

[pisto]

wow, that is interesting martin, thanks a lot!
just purchased a mod. 1 ser. Nr. 15599 with crow N proofs

and need new grips for it