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Because:

1/ there were no Luftwaffe accepted side by side shotguns
2/ there were no Luftwaffe shotguns in 16 gauge
3/ there were no Walther Luftwaffe shotguns
4/ the only Luftwaffe shotguns were over and unders in 12 gauge, made by Sauer & Sohn, BSW or Merkel
5/ the Luftwaffe eagle obvioulsly is a fake. The original Luftwaffe/2 eagles look different
6/ a Luftwaffe acceptance PLUS a Wehrmacht acceptance WaA 359 doen't make any sense at all
7/ The shotgun was proofed by the Zella Mehlis proof house in October 1935.

Regards

Martin
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Fact is: I have seen another… that shotgun (same proofs) was engraved.. It had been presented to a Luftwaffe General and included Walther paperwork.. Ps: Price $18,000.
 
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Gentlemen : you rely too much on your own discretionary laurels, you have been wrong before and you are honestly wrong again. many of your blogs and innuendos are unfounded , biased, and without good provenance . i believe many of the guns you have downgraded as fakes and black market get rich guns, may in fact, be authentic . seventy years of closet specimens are about to see the light of day. veterans on both fronts are dying and their relatives are giving up their treasured heirlooms. doug smith has cataloged more guns in his collecting years than most of you have been alive. i suggest the forums take a new tactical approach to constructive critism for the enrichment of all members and for the betterment of gun collecting.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
I remember as a young man a local gunsmith telling me my 1938 luger w/ ser. numbered mags in its ser. numbered holster, were a dime a dozen..
I often wonder what the motives are with the so called experts…
 

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i suggest the forums take a new tactical approach to constructive critism and for the betterment of gun collecting.
Hi schooner.207,

most interesting first post here. I remember quiet well my first post here on this nice forum. it started with the words:

"Dear All,

as this is my first post on this forum: hello everybody, I'm Martin Krause from Germany, interested in Sauer pistols."

Your first post is demonstrating quiet well, what you mean with the above mentioned quote. Continue with your constructive critism for the enrichment of all members - and please, tell us, why the Walther shotgun isn't a fake. I'm still learning.

Regards

Martin
 

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Martin Krause is a highly respected world class collector author held in high regard. He carefully listed the reasons for his call on the shotgun. Please discuss why you disagree with his reasons rather than attack him and the members of this forum.
Thanks
Jan

Note: Douglas Smith should not be confused with Doug Smith of FGS
 

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"6/ a Luftwaffe acceptance PLUS a Wehrmacht acceptance WaA 359 doen't make any sense at all"

The above is a totally false statement, There are Heer model flareguns that have both the Waa 359 Walther Army proof, and an added Luftwaffe proof. It simply shows the gun was contracted for the Wehrmacht, and then pulled and was accepted for Luftwaffe use.

I have a number of them collected over 40 years,

That said, I do not have a warm fuzzy feeling about the Walther shotgun although I have not had the experience with these guns to make a knowledgeable statement on its authenticity.
 

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I have been lucky enough to own one Luftwaffe marked double shotgun. It was a 12 gauge Merkel over/under with a large Luftwaffe eagle and Swastika on the right chamber. The gun had been restocked so the second LW stamp on the stock was long gone.

Mr. Krause is dead right; neither the Luftwaffe nor the Wehrmacht armed themselves with double barreled sixteen gauge shotguns nor any other shotgun. The markings on the above presented shotgun are totally fake.
 
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Gentlemen, let me begin by saying I am the other Doug Smith, not related, but we are both members of the Ohio Gun Collectors Assn.

Being the owner of this Proofed Walther and having seen another, not to mention my 50 years of collecting Walthers "some published" including a Walther Patent semiautomatic 12 gauge, I question the motives in devaluating this shotgun with seven unsupported statements. Even after I stated seeing another documented military purchase of a Walther Model 80 shotgun...

Why should SCHOONER now bear the burden of proof when a picture of it is already posted for all to see...as opposed to another individual posting seven “all heresy” remarks based upon a picture he has of field use of a Sauer, etc.. This is another case of a collector, who obviously has never seen one of these and untill he does will not admit the reality ...

A picture is worth a 1000 words. Common sense would also help...

PS: Thank you Signalman (post #11) for support...based upon another example..
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Gentlemen, Please refer to Walther Vol.II by James Rankin p24 Walther Proofs
"Early Walthers were proofed with Crown "N" through 1938"
Other marks were placed on Walthers of this period Include Waffenamt acceptance mark Eagle/WaA359"
It has been my understanding these were training guns for Luftwaffe gunners, to train then in leading the target. ie: Skeet
PS: This is an early Walther most likely delivered in the mid 30's... The Walther Luftwaffe Proof are pre 39 not post as shown on the 41 Sauer...
Another example: Crown N vs Eagle N..
I suspect the the DBL was intended for gunner training vs. the Drilling a carry along for survival...
 

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Markings on my J.P. Sauer & Sohn M30 Luftwaffe accepted drilling, serial number 337588, dated 12/41, gauge 12/65, 9.3 x 74R, Eagle N proof.
Sorry for the poor quality photos, but kitchen lighting leaves a lot to be desired.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Thanks for posting Ur pictures, including the young man...
Nice Sauer Shotgun too...I would conclude it to be a direct Luftwaffe purchase, post 39.. Like so many Walthers purchased by Police Depts, NSDAP Etc... Not all guns were Waffenamt..
 
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Discussion Starter #17
the proof marks on the doug smith walther shotgun are on page 34 and 35 of whittingtons book, german pistols and holsters. line one, page 35, describes the proof as it applies to the luftwaffe waffenamt. the waA359 is on page 37 , and it applies itself to walther pp and ppk . it would be logical for a walther shotgun to be marked with these military acceptance stamps prior to 1939.
 
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Thanks for the reference info schooner... I copied this out of my library for all to see.. Its unfortunate that some choose to shoot from the hip without proper research...
 

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What's with the new members with less that 7 posting being so argumentive and negative.

If they don't like or agree with what is being said, I wonder why they just don't move on!

Regards,

George
 
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