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Its unfortunate that some choose to shoot from the hip without proper research...
Gentlemen,

Some words about “proper research” as done by “schooner.207” and Douglas Smith. Let’s take an other example: I’m aware of at least two Sauer 1913s (one of which has Imperial acceptance crown/Q) having Kriegsmarine acceptance markings Nazi eagle over M. Well, I did my homework:

1/ there is a 1976 dated DWJ article by Hans-Joachim Tillig where some Sauer 1913s are shown having c/N markings.
27 there is Jim Cate’s book, where some Sauer 1913s having Imperial acceptance c/Q are shown.
3/there is some other printed reference, where a Kriegsmarine acceptance is shown on a Mauser 1934.

Hurray! As all markings are known to exist, the Kriegsmarine Sauer 1913 must be legit!

No, it isn’t. It’s a fake.

Now, for the proper research regarding the Walther shotgun in question:

Gentlemen, Please refer to Walther Vol.II by James Rankin p24 Walther Proofs
"Early Walthers were proofed with Crown "N" through 1938"
Other marks were placed on Walthers of this period Include Waffenamt acceptance mark Eagle/WaA359"
What does this proof? Nothing, except it proofs Rankin is outdated with this statement:

"Early Walthers were proofed with Crown "N" through 1938"


Nope. Early Walthers (as well as all other pocket pistols proofed in the Zella-Mehlis or Suhl proof house) received the approval marking c/N until January 1940. From 15th January 1940 on the new eagle/N markings were used. Not earlier.

I never questioned the c/N proof marks. Which are not necessary anyway, as there is a proof date: 1035 = October 1935.

And, yes, it’s a well known fact, that there are Walthers having WaA 359 Wehrmacht acceptance markings. So what?

Nice Sauer Shotgun too...I would conclude it to be a direct Luftwaffe purchase, post 39.. Like so many Walthers purchased by Police Depts, NSDAP Etc... Not all guns were Waffenamt..
??? It’s not a shotgun, but a drilling. And it was proofed in December 1941.


the proof marks on the doug smith walther shotgun are on page 34 and 35 of whittingtons book, german pistols and holsters. line one, page 35, describes the proof as it applies to the luftwaffe waffenamt. the waA359 is on page 37 , and it applies itself to walther pp and ppk . it would be logical for a walther shotgun to be marked with these military acceptance stamps prior to 1939.
As already mentioned: yes, Walther pistols do have WaA 359. So?

OK, I’ve to admit, the Luftwaffe “chicken”/2 marking does appear on Krieghoff Lugers. Again: what’s the significance?


Does all the above mean, the shotgun is legit? I don’t think so.

Now for the way of research I feel to be proper. Books are the first step. The more important step of doing researches is visiting archives and searching for period documents.

One of such period document is shown in the annex.

This is a Luftwaffe datasheet Fl 90020 "Handwaffen-Übungsgeräte Wurftaubenflinte" (smallarms - training devices - Clay Pidgeon shotgun) showing how the eagles are to be stamped on stock and barrel lug including their measures. Quiet interesting also: all three makers are mentioned: BSW, Merkel and Sauer & Sohn.

It’s an official Luftwaffe datasheet. The only one known to exist dealing with shotguns. Is Walther mentioned? No. Is a sxs shown? No.

ALL Luftwaffe shotguns I’m aware of are in 12-70, that means, in 12 gauge having a 70 mm long chamber (2 ¾”). All, without exception. Does a 16 gauge with short 65 mm ( 2 9/16”) does make sense? No, considering the fact, that there are known ONLY 12-70 Luftwaffe cartridges. I liked to own one and I can’t provide photos. But I know, only 12-70 cartridges for the Luftwaffe did exist. And it makes no sense of all considering the supply chain in the Luftwaffe (and Army, respectively).

Now, turning to the Luftwaffe eagle/2 (in the following: L/2) AND the WaA eagle 359 (e/359 in the following). Why are both eagles present? Does it make any sense on a shotgun??? No. Shotguns were used by the Luftwaffe only – not by the Army or the Navy. Shotguns are making sense for the Airforce to learn shooting on moving targets.

Next: the normal acceptance procedure. Thanks to “signalman” I know now, that there are signal pistols having both the Luftwaffe and the Army acceptance. But normally, the Heer (Army) solely was in charge for accepting handguns, like pistols and rifles. The Luftwaffe broke this rule ONLY with guns used exclusively by the Luftwaffe: Krieghoff Lugers, Sauer drillings, Luftwaffe shotguns, the FG 42. All others were accepted by the Army and than delivered to the Luftwaffe. Remember the Luftwaffe Theuermann holsters only having Luftwaffe acceptance, but the relating FN Brownings 1910/22 only have WaA (= Army) acceptance.

Again: we are talking about a shotgun. In 16 gauge. Having both L/2 and e/359 acceptance. Hard to believe. Very hard.

Regards

Martin
 

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I am with Martin on this.
"Now, turning to the Luftwaffe eagle/2 (in the following: L/2) AND the WaA eagle 359 (e/359 in the following). Why are both eagles present? Does it make any sense on a shotgun??? No. Shotguns were used by the Luftwaffe only – not by the Army or the Navy. Shotguns are making sense for the Airforce to learn shooting on moving targets."
OMHO he is right.
Jay
 

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Douglas and Schooner won't be returning, at least under these names, as they are banned by the Admins for inproper conduct.


Ed
 

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Hi all, I'm sorry to see Douglas and Schooner go. I enjoy a spirited discussion and I thought the topic very interesting. I don't find their conduct any more improper than that of our elected representatives in Washington! Regards
 

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Ed, if you must throw someone out please leave the offending post for others to enjoy. Apparently I was insulted on another post somewhere that was subsequently scrubbed and I can't even enjoy it now.
 

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Well, it's now sort of a moot point, but here are some photos and scans. Compare the Walther shotgun markings to known original LWaA acceptance marks.

Photos 1 and 2 are from the Walther shotgun. Photos 3 and 4 are from my example of the Luftwaffe accepted Sauer M30 drilling. Photos 5 and 6 are scans from Gibson's book "The Krieghoff Parabellum". Please take note of the Gibson LWaA 1st-Stage I and II markings.

The LWaA acceptance marking on the Walther is different as day and night compared to the LWaA acceptance markings in photos/scans 3 to 6.

BTW, Martin, I notice the gauge markings on the Sauer drilling is 12/65. Were they produced in 12/65 and 12/70?
 

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Hi Francis, You are absolutely correct about the "differences" in the Luftamts of the shotgun in question and the others that you provided. Thanks for your Model 30 Sauer Drilling's number. It fits perfectly within the chronological database I have on all Sauer long guns (hunting & sporting and, get this, Luftwaffe accepted because of the over/unders and Drillings) that are in my new Sauer book. Martin's information was quite correct and I am glad he was supported by numerous others here on the forum. Thanks again, JIM
 

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Hi all, I'm sorry to see Douglas and Schooner go. I enjoy a spirited discussion and I thought the topic very interesting. I don't find their conduct any more improper than that of our elected representatives in Washington! Regards
Well, if you want "spirited" discussions, then you are welcome to go to many other forums.


Geo, its not always "me" that tosses folks out; there is another moderator (Vlim) and an owner of the forum named Jan Still ;)
 

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Martin
It can be difficult discussing questionable or fake guns with one who is not knowledgeable, not in touch with the facts and who attacks everyone who does not agree with him. Your presentation was outstanding, sticking to the facts and information from original documents.

On this forum hot air is made for blowing up balloons not verifying questionable or fake guns.
Thanks for your excellent presentation,
Jan
 

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I made a big mistake on my comment that the luft eagle and Waa 359 were both on some of my Luftwaffe marked flare pistols.

I spoke from memory, and my memory was faulty.

I have found 10 of the 11 Walther Luft proofed Heer flare pistols that I own, and these are all 1937 and earlier production (prewar ) flare pistols, and most have the normal crown BUS4 Firing proofs plus the Luftwaffe eagle 2 proofs. The eleventh flare pistol according to my records is also a prewar flare pistol and should be proofed the same.

Due to my faulty memory I must apologize and state that to my knowledge The Waa359 and Luft Eagle are NOT found on the same guns at least when it comes to flare pistols.

Also, My Luft Eagle 2 proofs appear to be like 2 of the ones pictured in the book shown.

Again, I do NOT have a good fuzzy feeling about this shotgun, and I said so in my first post.
 

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The Walther gun is perhaps a good study in gilding the lily. If the Heer WaA had not been applied the LWaA may have not been noticed at first glance as being spurious. However it would not pass for long under close scrutiny.
Nice gun, but bad markings.
 

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I made a big mistake on my comment that the luft eagle and Waa 359 were both on some of my Luftwaffe marked flare pistols.

I spoke from memory, and my memory was faulty.
Hi signalman,

You’re welcome. Our memory often is right – but sometimes wrong. I know that and it does happen to me also - especially, when I’m too lazy to walk over to my safe or to my books. And as I’m lazy quiet often, it happens too often…..;)


BTW, Martin, I notice the gauge markings on the Sauer drilling is 12/65. Were they produced in 12/65 and 12/70?
Hi Francis,

thanks for showing the different Luftwaffe eagles.

As far as the chamber length of Luftwaffe drillings is concerned: well, I’m aware of 65 mm long chambers only. But guess to remember having seen also 70 mm long chambers. But I’m absolutely not certain. You know, memory can be misleading….

When I referred to the cartridges of the Luftwaffe, I had the ones in mind delivered to the Luftwaffe for clay bird shooting. These cartridges have shots with a diameter of 2.5 mm only appropriate for trap shooting. I’ve seen such cartridges – but unfortunately, I don’t have a photo. But at least, you can see one of these cartridges here:

http://www.sammlermunition.de/schrot_kriegspatrone.htm

While most of the cartridges shown there are of WWI, the one I’m referring to is described with

“Kal. 12, Luftwaffenpatrone, R für Rottweil.“ Shell is grey with a black stripe with “70 mm”.

Regards

Martin
 

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Gentlemen,

there’s another faked shotgun which is currently auctioned as Luftwaffe shotgun:

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2990618

The seller (claiming to be a certified “Waffensachverständiger” = “Firearms expert”) is offering a 16 gauge side-by-side shotgun made by Simson with proof date 8/43. Gun has stamp markings which really were used on genuine Luftwaffe shotguns.

But it is a stupid fake – because of four main reasons:

It’s a 16 gauge (Luftwaffe shotguns were only made in 12 ga)
It’s a sxs (Luftwaffe shotguns were only o/u)
It’s a Simson
Proof date and proof markings don’t fit together.

Regarding the last two points:

As we know, Simson was seized by the Nazis in 1934 and was renamed to BSW and later to Gustloff Werke. So, usage of Simson on any gun can be ruled out. Simson was re-used as trademark/company’s name after the end of the war by the Soviets. And take a look on the barrel. There you can see:

“Simson & Co. S.A.G. xxxxxx Suhl” (xxxxx is a portion which has been defaced).

Well, after the war the complete name of Simson in the early years of the GDR was:

Simson & Co. Sowjetische Aktiengesellschaft Awtovelo” (Soviet AG and later Staatliche AG).

From the Simson markings alone it’s clearly a post war GDR gun.

Regarding the proofs: a proof date of August 1943 simply don’t match with crown markings c/N, c/U, c/W. These were used before 1940 and after the war.

In short words: this is a GDR made shotgun.

Regards

Martin
 

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wow! great thread.
thats the first time i ever saw two new members banned so fast! and on the same thread!!:D
seriously, very informative posts from martin and others
tom
 

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German Dbl Shotgun w/ Lufftwaffe/2 proof also Eagle/x

44148x7.jpg Today, I viewed a Shotgun on jamesbjulia auctions. It is Late Stage proof Luftwaffe/2. ALSO please note the 12/65 which tends to put in dispute comments made in post 22. PS: This is Sauer is listed for $20,000.oo +

*EXCEPTIONALLYFINE SAUER LUFTWAFFE DRILLING WITH ORIGINAL CASE AND ACCESSORIES. SN 338452. Cal. 12 x 12 x 9.3 x 74R. 2-1/2”Chambers. 25-1/2” Barrels with full length matted rib fitted with pop-upU-notch rear sight and silver bead front, are engraved with caliber on rib, andstamped with “Krupp – Laufstahl” and “J. P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl” on eachbbl. Rear side of right bbl is stamped with Luftwaffe eagle. Bbl flats arestamped with "5/42", nitro proofs, and calibers. Bottom of bottom bblis stamped with SN, and eagle over M proof. Rear lump is stamped withWaffenampt 2.
 

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Luftwaffe with WaA359 & Luftwaffe acceptance

Please see pictures of two 1937 Walther Flare Pistols, one with both WaA359 and Luftwaffe acceptance, the other with only Luftwaffe acceptance. Proves to be no set rule of early acceptance.
 

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I do not believe the flaregun proofs are Luftwaffe proofs. Just an early style of Walther proof. What is the source for that info ??

If those early eagles are luft proofs then I have a hellavalot more Luft flareguns than I thought I did.
 
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