[Edward Tinker]

Picked this up at the Colorado Springs gunshow today, the close up of the acceptance markings looks like it was re-stamped by a 3?

Comments please...
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Download Attachment: policetool3.jpg
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Download Attachment: policetool2.jpg
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[shawn martin]

Well here I go, about to learn something else new. Checking out this posting made me go look at the tool in the little flap "holster" inside the flap of the holster to my 1921 Police. I had never noticed any marks on it before (never thought to look). Mine has an acceptance stamp that looks somewhat like yours. (the Gothic looking "D" shape with the little arms on both sides, three on the left, two on the right respectively)hbut where yours looks over stamped, mine is topped by a crown, (not pointy-topped, but a closed crown with 5 closed curves, topped by a small point in the center top. Just above and to the right is a number "4". On the other "grooved" side is the 4-digit number "3150.". Anyone have any ideas about the acceptance stamp? It was the original at the time of capture by my dad (April 1945)and matches one of the set of numbers stamped into the back (inboard) side of the holster.(see photos on "1921 4-inch Army (?)" site. Weimar stamp? Would the crown make it an Imperial holster?

 

[shawn martin]

Almost a month and no reply! Answer me this anyone: Does having a tool with a matching serial number as that on the holster make the holster/tool combo more valuable?

 

[Edward Tinker]

I imagine that many people thought about it, but it is hard to picture, without any pictures... Can you scan it in or take a digital photo of the marking?

A matching tool to a holster is worth extra to most people, but it helps even more to have the gun with the matching holster. Is your holster a police holster? And is your luger also a police?

Ed

 

[shawn martin]

ED, Hi, how 'ya been? If you remember me, you helped me discover that the WWII captured 4" 9mm 1921 model that my father brought back was actually a "police" (ie Reichswehr)As far as matching the pistol I don't know, the pistol serial# is 257 (3-digit)the tool has 3150 for a number, and the holster is a police with SDII on the outside and inboard sides as well as several other serial numbers. I have 3 photos of the holster showing the markings on the "1921 4-inch barrel army ?" site on this thread of the Weimar forum if you would care to look and then reply here. I'd love to hear what you think.

 

[Edward Tinker]

From what I understand, it depended on how the GI got the weapon. Many of the weapons were tossed into piles or barrels and sometimes the pistols were seperated, i.e. holsters in one pile, pistols in another. I am guessing that that is why you find a holster with matching tool / mag and the gun is different.

Will re-review your posting on the holster!

Ed

 

[shawn martin]

Holster and pistol were captured together by my father in combat. "Owner" was a middle aged major and a rabid NAZI, which fits in with the Reichswehr scenereo. (I imagine a WWI Lt. who joined the Reichswehr and the early NAZI party, was a little "long in the tooth" for WWII combat, was a "last ditch" type in the Battle of the Ruhr Pocket in spring '45)

 

[RockinWR]

Shawn,
* The tool's numerals 3150 are not a S/N; but, rather a police inventory number. As you've pointed out, this number also appears on the holster associated with the S.D.II.xxxx markings. S.D.II indicates Schutzpolizei(City Police), Duesseldorf, 2nd Centurian(Precinct), Inventory #xxxx. Seems this example got a lot of inventory numbers along the way; possibly tracking to the expansion of the Police force from 1921 as a major city grew. The upper right rear of the holster is the customary location for the Weimar Police markings. Eventually they ran out of room on the holster's back by the late 30's IMO when the original owner "retired" to the unit shown on the front of the holster. Lot of "Police" units were formed and staffed by older personnel. Water Police, Fire Police, etc.
* In the final days of the defense of Germany, the very young and very old were "drafted". The Ruhr pocket produced some stange combinations. It sounds like your Major, in his patriotic way, attempted to stem the tide & got captured in the pocket "defending" his city.
* Trust this one possible view begins to illuminate the history your example hints at telling.

 

[shawn martin]

Excellent Info.! So how about the germanic looking "D" with the crown above it? "City of Dusseldorf" inspector's stamp? And the number 4 to its upper right? A particular inspector? a unit #? This is really interesting. All my life I've virtually ignored the holster, compared to the pistol. and now I discover that, in fact, much of the handgun's story can be learned through the holster.

 

[RockinWR]

Shawn,
* Crown/D is an Imperial Inspector's Acceptance stamp. Crown/letter accepted tools were issued with Erfurt produced Lugers (1911-1918).
* Likely a lot of tools were left over after WWI and found their way to Weimar Police & other applications. No idea what the "4" means. Pure speculation could be the "4" is a Police inspector's mark when the inventory mark was added to the tool's back.
* Identical/matching grip strap markings on your 1921 would more definitively link the hoster/tool and their history to this gun. Why your P.08 was not grip strap, Weimar Police Unit marked is a mystery suggesting the pistol and the PT.08/tool may not have been married initially when the gun was produced.

 

[shawn martin]

Bob,
Aha! The mystery deepens. Now I have a Weimar pistol with an (originally)Imperial holster. That probably explains the several numberings on the holster. (a reissue I'm guessing)Thanks for the Info.!

Shawn

 

[Edward Tinker]

I have seen them with the serial number on the holster and the tool, I have one in my collection like that for Weimar Police. In fact, I beleive for Weimar Police that many times the number on the holster / tool is the SN, but I could be mistaken.

Ed

 

[shawn martin]

One of the numbers may be the serial # of the original Erfurt Luger. Thanks for the posting Ed. I never paid more than passing attention to the tool and its markings (in fact I had never noticed the "crown D") Its amazing how much can be learned through such a small item. Thanks again to all for (as usual) kindly sharing your knowledge.

Shawn

 

[RockinWR]

Shawn,
* No. You do not have an Imperial Holster based on the tool's C/D. Read again my last post. You have a left over WWI Tool surplused to the Police sometime after WWI ended.
* The holster appears to be a Police style common to the Weimar or early Nazi era. Have you looked over the holster for a Maker's name, city, and date?? This marking can appear on the back between the belt loops or sometimes hidden under the top of one belt loop. It is also sometimes seen on the upper outside lip of the holster's body near the pullup strap knot or on the inside surface of the bucket top.
* Again, I believe the numerals "3150" (& others shown) are Police inventory number(s) and NOT related to this pistol's Manufacturer's S/N.
* OBTW - What kind of eagle appears on the aluminum bottom magazine? A clear picture of this eagle would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bob

 

[Edward Tinker]

Bob, not to disagree at all, but this is one of the ones that I have;

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=962

This is my 1911 Erfurt, with a WW2 era police holster & tool that are numbered and to the serial number.

Ed

 

[shawn martin]

Bob, thanks for the clarification. So I have an imperial TOOL, later matched to a holster from a slightly later (Weimar or early NAZI) era holster, and given matching acceptance numbers by the Reichswehr.
*Now, as far as the holster goes,I can't find any indication of a manufacturer's name, date, or city. The only unexplained marking seems to be a cursive or script looking "R" ( as in "SDII.29.R.") Could the "29" be 1929? and the "R" stand for Reichswehr? or an abbreviation for a manufacturer?
*The eagle on the bottom of the magazine appears to be (I'm using Gordon A. Hughes' "Luger Recognition, a concise guide" pg.21 which shows German proof and acceptance marks) a "Police acceptance stamp (1938-1942". The Eagle has very squared off wings and sits on a circle with an X (not a swastika) in it, and has the letter "L" to its right, which shows in Hugh's example (he shows examples with the letters K,F,C, and L, all to the right of the eagle, as capital letters.

Thanks for your interest and help

Shawn

 

[shawn martin]

Ed, Just checked out your matching rig on the other site (very nice) your holster and mine could be twins (shape,loops,the works) except that your's has the manufacturer's name etc, and mine does not. Interesting note of no particular importance, my dad found some leather tack for a bridle in a barn right after the capture, and rigged up a rather impressive shoulder holster rig for my holster, which is how he carried it in additon to his 1911A1 and the hunk of GM product(1919A6) as well as a little German .25 auto. I removed the shoulder straps when I was a kid as they were not original. Now i kind of wish I's left them just for the sake of curiosity.

Shawn

 

[RockinWR]

Ed,
* Welcome your input. You are certainly proper to solidify this S/N option. Your example clearly illustrates a Police PT.08 numbered to the matching pistol's S/N. Thank You.
* In Shawn's example, the holster display's a S.D.II.xxxx. When the xxxx number is attached to a Unit designation, I believe we all agree the xxxx is a inventory number.
* The question now becomes whether the number "3150" is a replacement of the unit mark's original "1324" or an added piece of identity, that being, the S/N of the pistol held by this holster.
* To be self serving, the "3150" is in close proximity to the S.D number and thus is a replacement for the initial inventory number "1324". To be fair, your example suggests the "3150" is a pistol's S/N and is buttressed by the "1324" not being struck over (canceled). To be honest, I now question my earlier post's singular description as being too absolute.
* Couple of other things to consider:
- The "3088" between the belt loops appears to be more like your S/N'd example being removed from the proximity of the Unit Mark.
- The Unit mark on the front of the holster suggests one or the other of the unit marks should have been negated (X'd) out.
- The "3150" & "3088" being S/N's would explain why Shawn's 1921 was not grip strap marked if the practice later in the decade or in the 30's was to no longer grip stap unit mark the pistol. It would also suggest the holster & tool was not original to the pistol. Assembled as a rig at some later time when markings were no longer maintained nor important. However, my conviction is the German's were rarly this imprecise and would of, at sometime, corrected/negated this discontinuity.
* Leave it to the Police Armourer to interject some ambiguity.
* Unfortunately, I know of no documentation which can help resolve which option should prevail and at what period of time. Hopefully someone can clarify.
Respectfully,
Bob

 

[Edward Tinker]

quote:* In Shawn's example, the holster display's a S.D.II.xxxx. When the xxxx number is attached to a Unit designation, I believe we all agree the xxxx is a inventory number.

Good catch Bob, that is a very valid point! In this instance, yes it would be an inventory number.

Ed

 

[Gercolctor]

Shawn
You asked what the last letter in the police unit mark; S.D.II.29.R. stood for. The letter "R" is infrequently found on older police Lugers and holsters. It mean "Revierhauptmannschaft" which were militarized police units established to help the local police in the bigger municipal areas. These units only existed from 1921 thru 1924.

Dusseldorf is a large municipal area and would have had one of these units.

Older Weimar police holsters often do not have maker marks or dates on them and if this holster was police marked with the letter "R" in the early 20s, that would be correct

It does not stand for Reichswehr, which was the Weimar Army.