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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Below are pix of a Luger that I bought off a guy I know, who says that it belonged to his father who brought it home from WWII. No cature papers or anything like that though, and the name on the holster does not match his name. It came in the holster shown, don't know if that is a correct holster or not. Below are my notes on the markings I found on the pistol. Can anyone please advise just what I have here, and a ballpark value? Thanks much!!

Daryll
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MARKINGS: Front of frame under barrel is 7563, over a script U. Bottom of barrel at rear is an unknown mark over an N over 7563 over a script U. Left side of receiver at front is 7563, with an N over it. Right side of receiver at front is H.P. 453. Top of forward toggle link has DWM in large script flourish lettering, and 63. Top of breechblock is 63. Top of extractor is 63. Top rear of rear toggle link is 63. Outside of trigger bar is 63. Top of safety bar is 63. Bottom of locking bolt is 63. Bottom of trigger side plate is 63. Front of grip frame is H.P. 453. Left side of grip frame, under the left grip, is a B, P, and an H. Front of front sight base at muzzle is 10. Both magazines are marked on bottom S/42 over 7563 over 1 or 2, over a Waffenamt eagle over 154.

Holster markings: On outside just below the top edge is H.P. On rear at top is a symbol of two crossed rifles over two crossed branches, over AKAH. Hand-inscribed on the rear in two places is M.S. On inside of top flap is hand-inscribed S/Sgt M. Shinevar, 7563, and Shinevar.
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What you have is a police Luger and police holster. You can tell by several ways; the first and most obvious is the "sear" safety on the left side of the gun (the "bar" that attaches above the trigger-plate). Another is the H P which is something that Dwight is researching and he will be interested in reading this. The HP is for a police unit, I do not remember where.

The magazines are marked 1 and 2 while army magazines are marked with nothing and a + (the + is the spare).

Your top of the receiver has no date or other markings?

Although many guys brought lugers home from the war, many times they did not capture it in "battle". So it could very well have been brought back by Bob Smith, but was traded or bought by him from the person who marked it. Or they had one "like" it in the war and they bought it here in America.

Value depends on many things, if it is a "sneak" or alphabet luger, then the "rig" is worth around $1200-$1400, depending on condition and orginality. Also, being two matched magazines drives the value up for some people. It appears to me, you are more likely to see matched mags with police, than with army guns.

Did you get taken or do well? :)

Thinking of reselling or trading?

Ed
 

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Sneak is a term that was / is used for the late 1920's guns that did not have the DWM or Mauser on the toggle. Some collectors believe that the guns were sneaked past the world, others think that as mauser started making the guns, nothing was put on the toggle on purpose, either to hide that the parts were DWM, or put together by mauser or I have wondered if mauser did not have a stamp yet.

ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The top of the Luger is not dated in any way, and that always made me wonder about the origin of the pistol, and what market it was made for. Is it highly unusual for it to be not dated? Thanks for answering some of my questions. If anybody has any more information, I certainly would like to read it. At least I didn't get taken, I have less than 1/3 of the price mentioned above into it.
 

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Daryll
“Both magazines are marked on bottom S/42 over 7563 over 1 or 2, over a Waffenamt eagle over 154.”
Your magazines are both 1935 (G date) German Army(S/42, E/154) and neither bear indications of police acceptance. These S/42 stamped magazines are usually military replacement intended to replace damaged or lost magazines. It is unusual (not observed or reported) that they bear the police numbers 1 and 2 and are serial numbered to a police unit marked Luger. My information may be dated and I would be interested in the observations of other collectors?
Jan
 

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I am a little troubled with the use of a 1935 era drop-winged eagle over 154 proofed magazines on both the primary and secondary magazines on a "U" block luger which supposedly was made in the late twenties or early thirties .
 

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"Can anyone please advise just what I have here...?"

Daryll, it appears that no one has really answered your question. I'm not the most qualified but I'll give it a shot and hope that someone will correct any errors.

The serial number 7563u indicates the gun was probably assembled by Mauser in 1930 from parts transferred from BKIW (DWM) after Luger production was moved to Mauser. The "H.P.453." stands for the Prussian Höhere Polizeischule (Senior Police Academy) in Potsdam, weapon no. 453. It is one of about 5 or 6 known "H.P." Lugers, all of which have had the stock lugs ground off. Yours is a new addition to this group, as far as I know. Others that I am somewhat familiar with are weapon nos. 148, 213 and 495. All are in the "7XXXu" range of serial numbers. While I know nothing about value of these Lugers, I would not immediately jump to the conclusion yours is a low-value shooter. Clearly, the modification to the stock lug was done by police armorers for a specific (but unknown) purpose and not by "Bubba." Hopefully, Dwight Gruber or Bill Munis will wade in with more information on this.

I hope this helps you...it certainly helped me. I'm developing a database of Weimar police marks and yours represents an important addition to a very interesting group.
 

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Don, very well said. See, I wanted Dwight to jump in, I forgot (and traveling, so I don't have all my books with me), and forgot about the ground off being common with the HP's. That can make a difference in price, another reason for me not to make a guess, even if it is a SWAG...

Ed
 

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Don
Thanks for the educational and interesting post. I was not aware of the H.P. stamped Lugers in the 7xxxu serial range that all had ground stock lugs. Do you have detailed descriptions of these 5 or 6 Lugers? Do any more have matched magazines?

Conversations with Gortz concerning the Spring 1930 move of Luger production from DWM(BKIW) Berlin to Mauser at Oberndorf indicate that Mauser production did not start until the first few hundred Lugers into the “v” suffix serial range in later 1930. Most of the information compiled in Weimar Lugers page 31-34, tends to support this.
Daryll
Your Luger serial number 7563u, was manufactured by DWM (BKIW) in 1929 or early 1930. These are called 29 DWMs. See the post Ed suggested below for more detailed information on a similar Luger. Also see page 31-34 Weimar lugers; and page 203-206 and 215 of Third Reich Lugers..
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217
Jan
 

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Jan,
Here is a printout of a query of my database for "H.P." marked guns. It includes four Lugers and one M1914 Mauser. The broader observations about additional guns of this type are based on information from Dwight Gruber and Bill Munis.

Download Attachment: HP_Marked_Pistols.jpg
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I failed to mention that another characteristic of these Lugers is the repitition of the unit mark on the right side of the receiver.

The following link to a discussion on the LugerForum provides some additional information. Unfortunately, the photos have been purged.
http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000030

Most of what I know about these guns comes from Dwight and Bill. I hope they will wade in soon!

Daryll,
Do your magazines have the unit mark on their splines (the narrow side)?
 

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Sorry, guys, I've been away from my computer for a couple of days.

Daryll,
H.P. marked Lugers are a particular interest of mine ever since I got one. Mine is serial# 7428u, H.P.495. I'd like to see two additional pictures of your gun: the rear grip strap, to see if comparison of the manner in which the stock lug has been removed shows any similarities; and the bottom of the receiver, to see the witness mark.

Your holster was made by Albericht Kind, Berlin and Nurnburg, a maker of Military, Police,and Commercial holster. The four H.P. holsters with which I am familiar are all Akah police conversions, three of them (including yours) are H.P. stamped but without a number (the fourth is numbered).

Taudelt,
I suspect that you have the nugget of a good idea there concerning acquisitions of magazines catch-as-can. My H.P. has a wood-base mag, matching serial# to the gun, but without letter suffix, stamped 2. I have photos of a pair of magazines, wood-base, #272 1&2, spine-marked H.P.516. I have a photo of spine-marked mag H.P.477, it has an aluminum bottom, but I do not have a photo of the bottom markings.

Don,
Most of what I know about these guns came from Bill. I have replaced the photos at http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000030 , actually this is the headwater post for the entire HP/H.P. & etc. quest. I posted the same questions on this forum, but those posts and their answers were lost in the Great Hack.

Apparently there has been some conversation in Auto Mag some time in the past about these guns, including the rumor of a list, but that publication resists research and so far I haven't been able to track any of it down.

--Dwight
 
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