[mhassoun]

I did a quick back of envelope calculation (based on published data) and estimated that the chance that a surviving HK Luger with sn number matched magazine(s) is about 30%. This is a relatively high percentage; possibly because these guns have not been used much in battle compared to other Lugers used by the German army during WWII. It could also possibly be because of the way the HKs were surrendered to or seized by the victorious armies. I am sure there are additional contributing factors to the statistic that members of this Forum can add (and I personally would love to learn about).

Question: Is there an approximate statistic on the percentage WWII army Mauser Lugers that exist today (say in USA) with matching magazine(s)? Or, what would your guess be?

 

[Jason S L]

I did a quick back of envelope calculation (based on published data) and estimated that the chance that a surviving HK Luger with sn number matched magazine(s) is about 30%. This is a relatively high percentage; possibly because these guns have not been used much in battle compared to other Lugers used by the German army during WWII. It could also possibly be because of the way the HKs were surrendered to or seized by the victorious armies. I am sure there are additional contributing factors to the statistic that members of this Forum can add (and I personally would love to learn about).

Question: Is there an approximate statistic on the percentage WWII army Mauser Lugers that exist today (say in USA) with matching magazine(s)? Or, what would your guess be?

I think a better way to track it is watch the retailers and see what’s available. Tracking that data to me would give you more realistic numbers what’s available with matching mags . Not to blow up your theory but Krieghoff with matching mags is way less common then Mauser with matching mag .

 

[mhassoun]

I think a better way to track it is watch the retailers and see what’s available. Tracking that data to me would give you more realistic numbers what’s available with matching mags . Not to blow up your theory but Krieghoff with matching mags is way less common then Mauser with matching mag .

Wow! That would be a supersize to me (but, after all, I am relatively new to Luger collecting)! But, if your estimate (way over 30% for the Mausers) is the case, I would love to learn about the reason(s).

 

[Jason S L]

Wow! That would be a supersize to me (but, after all, I am relatively new to Luger collecting)! But, if your estimate (way over 30% for the Mausers) is the case, I would love to learn about the reason(s).

I’m not making any estimates . I’m just saying it’s more rare to see Krieghoff with matching mag than Mauser . But the Krieghoff production is a small number compared to Mauser

 

[Edward Tinker]

I'd disagree with you, why would a kreighoff be used less than any other luger? I know, its a luftwaffe and they didn't go to war. (

As an old collector told me once (Jan Still), count the number of matched magazines, 40-50 yrs ago from shattuck, simpson, ldt and other dealer catalogs.
Then compare to now.

 

[johnboy]

I'd disagree with you, why would a kreighoff be used less than any other luger? I know, its a luftwaffe and they didn't go to war. (

As an old collector told me once (Jan Still), count the number of matched magazines, 40-50 yrs ago from shattuck, simpson, ldt and other dealer catalogs.
Then compare to now.

Hit that nail on the head Ed, jokers like PIA have double matches on everything that leaves there. used to be single or double matches were rarely seen. Now they're common. Yes, thanks to the internet it's easier for stuff to get reunited but not at the current rate of expansion.

 

[mhassoun]

I'd disagree with you, why would a kreighoff be used less than any other luger? I know, its a luftwaffe and they didn't go to war. (

As an old collector told me once (Jan Still), count the number of matched magazines, 40-50 yrs ago from shattuck, simpson, ldt and other dealer catalogs.
Then compare to now.

Do I hear you say that the surviving Mausers P.08 with original sn matching magazines is low? How low compared to %30? Has anyone done the estimates 40-50 years ago? I checked the classic reference books, but failed to find any info on it.

 

[phila]

I agree that a good start would be to capture sales information for a while like a year or two from credible dealers and auctions. One has to be sure or reasonably sure that the mags are legit numbered. Probably a half dozen categories would need to be established for this to have much meaning. Police, Imperial, Simson, early and late Mauser and HK.
The one big canard that is always there with this type of thing but never mentioned is that typically matched mag guns, particularly when conditions is high, are the last to go so the market is never representative of what actually exists but what of that is commonly traded.

 

[Edward Tinker]

Do I hear you say that the surviving Mausers P.08 with original sn matching magazines is low? How low compared to %30? Has anyone done the estimates 40-50 years ago? I checked the classic reference books, but failed to find any info on it.

What?
ALL single and double matching mags is a small number. Do not confuse one company with another, as i see no difference IMHO between HK, Mauser, Simson, Erfurt, DWM, except for age, the longer it was in serve, the more likely it is to be mismatched.
Obviously if it was a personal weapon it is more likely, if it is a police, it is more likely.
Many questions like this get answered word of mouth from older collectors.

you are looking for specific information but also %'s are usually not in a book. But this is covered in various books, just likely not as a set in stone, because nobody knows,

 

[mhassoun]

What?
ALL single and double matching mags is a small number. Do not confuse one company with another, as i see no difference IMHO between HK, Mauser, Simson, Erfurt, DWM, except for age, the longer it was in serve, the more likely it is to be mismatched.
Obviously if it was a personal weapon it is more likely, if it is a police, it is more likely.
Many questions like this get answered word of mouth from older collectors.

you are looking for specific information but also %'s are usually not in a book. But this is covered in various books, just likely not as a set in stone, because nobody knows,

I meant to say “percentage of” not number.

 

[Edward Tinker]

I probably wrote too fast - the general consensus from old time collectors is that there are a larger number of matched mag/guns than there used to be.
Old time collectors would say the percentage was less than 10% (??) then and probably like you said, 20-30% now. Why, because of fakers.

 

[Rich]

Only 4% of bring back Mauser Lugers had matching magazines, and now there's only 18% of bring backs with matching magazine remaining,

PS: 73.6% of all statistics are made up.

 

[mhassoun]

Only 4% of bring back Mauser Lugers had matching magazines, and now there's only 18% of bring backs with matching magazine remaining,

PS: 73.6% of all statistics are made up.

Is the 4% some observed estimate or part of the rest of the joke?😂

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Do not agree that matching HONEST mags are common with HK lugers.


The point of HK guns used less is a very interesting topic.
MOST HK lugers are from pre 1940 with most military examples 1936-1937. No war
Most commercials are 1939-1940.

Ed brought it up years ago that there were way more HK lugers in nice shape than Simson lugers.
Roughly same amount of each produced.

No idea on Simson [ look like Erfurts to me] but I have had non-gun folks look at my 1937 HK and describe it as a " piece of jewelry " and there are indeed quite a few really nice HK lugers around.
How many were issued to gun aficionado's or folks that just like nice pretty stuff?
How many of those were left at home?

Common knowledge many higher decorations [ knights cross and above] that were awarded pieces were left at home and the holder bought or whatever a second or more sets to wear in combat.
Adolph Galland had 4 sets IIRC.

No data to back this up of course but if I was issued a 1937 HK with no war on, I would have left it home and picked something else up.
JMHO of course

 

[Rich]

Is the 4% some observed estimate or part of the rest of the joke?😂

The 4% is a made up guesstimate. I think the truth is no one knows, and no one will ever know. But as Ed and others have said above there seems to be an increasing number of matching magazines due to "boosting".

This is not a phenomenon unique to Lugers. I know 35 years ago when I began to collect US M1 Carbines ones with clean original cartouches on the stocks were scarce. Now ones with laughably deep and crisp "original" cartouches on otherwise very tired and well worn rifles are common.

 

[johnboy]

Is the 4% some observed estimate or part of the rest of the joke?😂

Probably fairly accurate actually. I would say less than 3 in a hundred showed up bitd with one match, two was like less than 1%. Now 30 for the same sampling. That said the internet makes a lot of more things accessible, including WaA dies and blank aluminum bases.

 

[Batty67]

Probably not very helpful, and definitely not scientific, but I've heard several times as a rule of thumb that perhaps 10% of Mauser-made Lugers have one legitimate matching magazine and 1% have two.Expounding a bit and being generous, say 10-20% one MM and definitely less than 5% have both. But to make a statistiically valid estimate of the actual population would require a very large sample. And with so many boosted/faked/force matched mags...it would be made that much more difficult.

 

[mhassoun]

Part of my original post was inquiring about some of the “main reasons” those WWII Lugers ended up mag mismatched.

 

[johnboy]

Part of my original post was inquiring about some of the “main reasons” those WWII Lugers ended up mag mismatched.

That has always been a mystery to me too.

 

[martin08]

If you pulled the overall percentage of matching HK mags from the HK list, you would be working with adulterated data. MANY HK matching mags are said to be matching because the number on the mag bottom matches the number on the frame.

Maybe a better way to describe all of this would be to look for 'original' magazines. So many of today's mags are actually 'matching', because someone scrubbed and stamped a new number.

'Original' mags are easy to spot. They are not compromised in any way.

Scrubbed and stamped 'matching' mags are easy to spot. They look like contraband crap.

Look for the percentage of 'original' mags. It will be a far lower percentage than 'matching' mags

Seeing what has been passed in sales as 'matching' over the years, my guess is less than 15% of HK mags are actually 'original'.