Several of these are bad. 9 is probably bad. 45, 56, and 72 are definitely bad. I'm sure there are a few more bad ones in the list. I have seen 377 (looked real), but I do not have any pics available. So unconfirmed for now.

Many of the early ones seem to use pulled WW1 barrels, and are generally only externally numbered on the frame. Some of the very early ones (like 14 and 18) appear to use the "normal" HK font for the SN. None I have seen use the odd font dies that allegedly replaced the normal ones after 1940. Strange.

 

Thanks for the input. I will use your nice pic of sn14 to add to the matrix.

 

Should add 10, 14, 18 and 23 look the worst to me.
Pretty obvious to me but form your own opinions
The all dark look reminds me of Ralph work

Krieghoff PX sn 18 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums

 

Thread on 171

Krieghoff PX Luger and DWM Luger | Jan C. Still Lugerforums

 

Pics of 121.
Note mauser barrel proof??
If yes a new one on me.
R side pic is terrible but it shows odd proofing.
Frame serial shows typical sloppy work or?


ADDING The more I look at this one I think it needs a close inspection.
JMHO of course,

 

Those guns were assembled in the Krieghoff factory, by Krieghoff workers and over a relatively short period of time immediately after the war had ended. Considering that, one would have to question the "variability" in sn font type and size. Why the extremely large (relatively speaking) font on few? Now, there is the story that some of those un-serialized guns that were brought back by GIs were required by the "authorities" (at some point in time) to have a visible serial number. So, there is the possibility that some of the font/size variation was in part due to that reason. The use of non-Krieghoff barrels and other small parts have been observed on a number of PXs, and it won't be far fetched that they came from non-HK donor guns. The one thing I would note about all of the "HK PX" guns that I have observed (or saw in closeup photos) is that they all share the distinctive breachblock/receiver gap of war-time Krieghoff Lugers (The "gap" was the subject of another thread).

 

Three examples
11799, 11423 and 11567

The one thing I would note about all of the "HK PX" guns that I have observed (or saw in closeup photos) is that they all share the distinctive breachblock/receiver gap of war-time Krieghoff Lugers (The "gap" was the subject of another thread).

 

That "distinctive gap" indeed ....
I have not seen any (supposedly) "war-time" 1945 that has it. This one has a Mauser-like gap👇

 

Looks more DWM to me.

To me "wartime guns" are 1941- 1944 in the 11,000 range.
The "late war" guns are 1944- 1945 in the high 12,000 and 13,000 range.
Gibson calls the latter "1944 production".
Gibson in his 1979 book makes many references to things on "1944 production" guns.

This is my favorite and pretty much calls them fake.

Bottom pic is another example of jabbing the fakers.
Note 11278 is NOT listed as a 1941.

That "distinctive gap" indeed ....
I have not seen any (supposedly) "war-time" 1945 that has it. This one has a Mauser-like gap👇
View attachment 717195

 

Extreme "gap" examples HK and Mauser.
Pics 1 and 2
1942 11895 and 11849
Pics 3 and 4.

ADDING
Pic 5 is S 1098 and is another "tight" extreme example.
The 3 examples in post twelve are the "tight" extreme for HK's

 

Extreme "gap" examples HK and Mauser.
Pics 1 and 2

So dramatic is that difference in the gaps (HK vs Mauser). I will start a $100 challenge thread on the "Hassoun's HK-gap", stay tuned.

 

I have no stake in this discussion whatsoever, but prior to 1968, there was no US import requirement that firearms have any serial numbers. Even US manufacturers and gunsmiths were producing firearms without serial numbers.

It's unlikely that any procedure would have required adding serial numbers to firearms GIs brought into the US prior to that date. Serial numbers on firearms were first required by the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA).

 

I love my calculator . 2023-1968=55 years time span for serial numbers to be added to some unserialized guns!

 

Interesting chat.....apparently, I never posted #194. I can't make out the number just to the left of 200 in the above pictures??? 194 is a complete rig, holster & two match mags and the carry-home paper. Unmarked toggle....

PJH

 

It is sn 183. Can you provide a picture of the serial number area of #194? I can add it to the matrix if you wish.

 

PJ,
194 is listed, just not pictured

 

Did look at 157.
Sure is pretty, nice uniform very dark blue.
Real nice grips.
I'll pass.

 

Excellent survival rate serial 1- 23.
Over 50%.

 

Those guns did not see battle and I would not be surprised to find them in good physical shape (except, of course, if they were stored in a harsh environment after they were brought back and/or handled without love).

 

10-4.........

PJH

 

Point I was after is pics of 10, 14, 18 and 23 sure look like early Ralph and associates work to me.
Would not be surprised if some of the other pre- 24 guns are similar.
Many examples of these all dark- same color guns around.
Look at the 1945 pic.
Any similarities?

Odd that they not only look funny but over 50% of serial 1- 23 are here.
I see nothing like that survival rate anywhere else.

On the condition thing I believe many guns came home in excellent shape but were used- abused here.
Who has not seen a new condition WW2 gun that has major bad storage rust issues. etc.

 

Interesting pic here.
Thanks.
Unlike you I do not know all the answers.

Just plain old street smarts now enhanced with this pc thing.

This pic, if in fact 200 is the first time I have seen a chipped-out [or cracked with chips still there] breechblock on anything other than a 1943.
VERY ODD!!!
Why did you not mention that?
Definitely not new knowledge.


The Mauser barrel thing is mentioned by Gibson.
I have never had one in my hands with a Mauser barrel and that is STILL true.
Living near Prior Lake most of my life I learned IN HAND is a must with these.
Agree if that is in fact 200 that sure looks like a Mauser barrel.
My point with 200 is it looks like it should.
Not some old all dark hack job.
Actually would like a close look at 200's receiver also. Receiver notch looks odd for a HK. Compare to S 1098
Need to find a new poster child for most honest looking post-war maybe.

Second pic is HK S 1098 and is on the tight end of the spectrum- like many others.
Third pic is the near the "loose" extreme.

14 and 18 look like old hack jobs to me so why bother with a comparison.
Many quotes of you using that deflection available.

And the beat goes on

 

Form your own opinions on these quotes. All from the thread on 1941 11799

I said I don't concern myself with meaningless machining details that don't really matter.

If you want all HK parts, all you need is an HK donor. I don't know why this is that difficult to understand. And bluing isn't exactly rocket science either. So I really don't see the relevance of this.

Where are all the "PX" guns? Very few are reported. The highest legit example I am aware of is 377, the only 300 range SN I know of, and only a couple of 200 range guns are known I think? Where are all of the guns? The 400-600 guns should have had a very high survival rate.

 

More interesting stuff from the same thread.

Its a fantasy piece as there were no 1941 HKs. Its like asking me what about a specific belt buckle gun is fake, or what is fake on a byf45 Luger. They are all fake, so I don't know exactly what you are looking for.
You keep asking questions instead of answering them. But ok.

Aside from the obvious 1936-1940 donors, one very good source for parts are the almost completely unmarked and undated cigarette guns from 1945. Very very easy to transform those into whatever late war year you want. There were supposedly 500-600 of these assembled, but most appear to be missing. They should probably be more common than they are, and IMO its very possible they were harvested for parts. Something similar happened to 1945 K98k infantry rifles that used long side rail receivers due to shortages. Most have been converted into fake snipers over the years.

But color me skeptical that you need a "full inventory" of "HK" made parts to construct a convincing fake. A few parts (frame, rear toggle, etc.) may be needed from donors, but most of the small stuff can probably be whatever. Bluing is trivial, as there have been many mechanics over the years who can expertly refinish stuff.

You just buy them on the open market. Donor pistols of all types (legit HK, the cigarette guns,etc) have been in country in very large quantities since 1945, as have tons of late Mauser spare parts, so not really a problem to acquire the material needed. You then remark and number what you need to. Its not that complicated.

At least based on Gibson's book, these pistols, including the 1945 trash, have been around since the 1970s at least.

There are 1945 turds in that book too. If I were you, I would stick to 1940 and earlier, pre-11300 serial range. HKs are still a mine field, but at least those actually existed.

 

By chance, I stumbled on the pics of 377. As I've said, looks real to me.

This is probably one of the last as overall workmanship is getting sloppy or was simply hurried. SN was misstamped on the frame or it was just mixed up. It also isn't fireproofed like the earlier ones, so was it possibly unfinished when the GIs and employees moved west? Parts also seem to have been running low. Breech block is salvaged from an early Mauser, and the rear toggle is a very interesting late war depot made part. Jt3 inspection appears to have come into use at HZa Ingolstadt around 1941 and seems to have been replaced sometime in 1944 or so. I would guess Ingolstadt was running low on spare P08 parts by 1943, so they made some of these rear toggles in house. Pretty cool.

I'm thinking the estimate from Krieghoff Jr. of 400-600 in Gibson still looks very reasonable. 400 or so numbered, and an unknown number of unnumbered ones put together early in the occupation before the whole business was organized.

So, where are the rest of the 200s and 300s?

 

No takers so>
Seem to be entering the twilight zone here.

"workmanship is getting sloppy" or was "simply hurried".
Same fonts on the 377- 378 stuff?
The HK postwar guns were simply assembled from leftover HK parts.
This gem is NOT

"Isn't fireproofed like the earlier ones"
Speechless on that one!!!

"possibly unfinished when the GI's and employees moved west?"
Reall like to hear this story!

By chance, I stumbled on the pics of 377. As I've said, looks real to me.

This is probably one of the last as overall workmanship is getting sloppy or was simply hurried. SN was misstamped on the frame or it was just mixed up. It also isn't fireproofed like the earlier ones, so was it possibly unfinished when the GIs and employees moved west?

 

I have updated the matrix to include the double serialization of sn 378/377.

 

Here is Krieghoff PX Crown N 5115 with some Luftwaffe stamping. Notice how the Krieghoff Suhl is double stamped on the toggle. There are no more numbers in the upper or lower portions of the pistol. Oh, and it shoots 30 Luger.

 

Interesting Luger. The proof marks on the RHS of receiver are atypical of the HK PX, tho.

 

I know, according to Thomas Whiteman about half of the PX guns he has seen have a Krieghoff stamped toggles and stamps. I bought this from him in an auction about nine years ago.

 

Here are two more photographs that may help to define what this Luger is: Just scroll and you'll see what I mean

 

Here are two more photographs that may help to define what this Luger is: Just scroll and you'll see what I mean

I'm afraid what you have is a total forgery. Nothing about this is original. Fake markings, fake SNs, just bad all the way around.

 

Time to just watch and enjoy the show.
Getting entertaining.