[mhassoun]

Interesting chat.....apparently, I never posted #194. I can't make out the number just to the left of 200 in the above pictures??? 194 is a complete rig, holster & two match mags and the carry-home paper. Unmarked toggle....

PJH

It is sn 183. Can you provide a picture of the serial number area of #194? I can add it to the matrix if you wish.

 

[RyanE]

Not going to waste anymore time tonight but can you not see all fonts are bigger than military guns?

Yes, I am aware of this. I think you are missing my point. Why don't we see the fonts that were in use through 1944? Isn't it strange we only see some that use the early HK font (like 14) but none with the late style font?

Better pics of 157. Typical of the 100-200 range, including the use of a spare WW2 barrel (probably Mauser, but can't read the WaA). Curious inscription on it though.

One of the auctions claimed it was presented to Karl Koller, a very prominent Luftwaffe general, but that isn't so. For one thing, Koller didn't spell his name "Köller" and doesn't seem to have had a middle initial as far as I can tell. The fraktur actually reads "Karl L. Röller" who appears to be no one. The date of 14 May 1944 is also very curious. Inscription is probably a much later addition, but very strange.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Is it remotely possible that things were not exactly normal at HK at that time?
Actually, concerning HK P.08's not sure the term "normal" fits at any time.

It is documented that front line troops were there first.
That was also when the company collection was "liberated".
The few guns assembled at that time are not marked.

The place had already been "liberated" some before the "PX" guns were assembled by some former employees.

Not a stretch to say the few 11,000 range 1944 date guns could have been assembled at least a year or more earlier.
Fonts not used on postwar guns does not surprise me.
BTW you are the one repeating over and over 1941- 1944 guns use the exact same fonts .
Not me.

See post 6. As stated, those look to be Ralph and company work to me, so comparison is a waste of time.


See pic. Why do you never comment on it? 1940 with full history.


Rest of quote deleted as deflection.

Yes, I am aware of this. I think you are missing my point. Why don't we see the fonts that were in use through 1944? Isn't it strange we only see some that use the early HK font (like 14) but none with the late style font?

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Did look at 157.
Sure is pretty, nice uniform very dark blue.
Real nice grips.
I'll pass.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Excellent survival rate serial 1- 23.
Over 50%.

 

[mhassoun]

Those guns did not see battle and I would not be surprised to find them in good physical shape (except, of course, if they were stored in a harsh environment after they were brought back and/or handled without love).

 

[heckinohio]

10-4.........

PJH

 

[RyanE]

See post 6. As stated, those look to be Ralph and company work to me, so comparison is a waste of time.

Lets compare 14 to some early HK frames that use the normal font. Looks identical. Why were these SN dies instead of the 1941-1944 pattern? You don't have to answer, just noting the strangeness of it.

On the large font guns, why do you think 157 is a problem? Is it just refinished (I agree it probably is), or do you think its a complete fake? Note that 200 also has a Mauser barrel and not much of a "gap" either.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Point I was after is pics of 10, 14, 18 and 23 sure look like early Ralph and associates work to me.
Would not be surprised if some of the other pre- 24 guns are similar.
Many examples of these all dark- same color guns around.
Look at the 1945 pic.
Any similarities?

Odd that they not only look funny but over 50% of serial 1- 23 are here.
I see nothing like that survival rate anywhere else.

On the condition thing I believe many guns came home in excellent shape but were used- abused here.
Who has not seen a new condition WW2 gun that has major bad storage rust issues. etc.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Interesting pic here.
Thanks.
Unlike you I do not know all the answers.

Just plain old street smarts now enhanced with this pc thing.

This pic, if in fact 200 is the first time I have seen a chipped-out [or cracked with chips still there] breechblock on anything other than a 1943.
VERY ODD!!!
Why did you not mention that?
Definitely not new knowledge.


The Mauser barrel thing is mentioned by Gibson.
I have never had one in my hands with a Mauser barrel and that is STILL true.
Living near Prior Lake most of my life I learned IN HAND is a must with these.
Agree if that is in fact 200 that sure looks like a Mauser barrel.
My point with 200 is it looks like it should.
Not some old all dark hack job.
Actually would like a close look at 200's receiver also. Receiver notch looks odd for a HK. Compare to S 1098
Need to find a new poster child for most honest looking post-war maybe.

Second pic is HK S 1098 and is on the tight end of the spectrum- like many others.
Third pic is the near the "loose" extreme.

14 and 18 look like old hack jobs to me so why bother with a comparison.
Many quotes of you using that deflection available.

And the beat goes on

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Form your own opinions on these quotes. All from the thread on 1941 11799

I said I don't concern myself with meaningless machining details that don't really matter.

If you want all HK parts, all you need is an HK donor. I don't know why this is that difficult to understand. And bluing isn't exactly rocket science either. So I really don't see the relevance of this.

Where are all the "PX" guns? Very few are reported. The highest legit example I am aware of is 377, the only 300 range SN I know of, and only a couple of 200 range guns are known I think? Where are all of the guns? The 400-600 guns should have had a very high survival rate.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

More interesting stuff from the same thread.

Its a fantasy piece as there were no 1941 HKs. Its like asking me what about a specific belt buckle gun is fake, or what is fake on a byf45 Luger. They are all fake, so I don't know exactly what you are looking for.
You keep asking questions instead of answering them. But ok.

Aside from the obvious 1936-1940 donors, one very good source for parts are the almost completely unmarked and undated cigarette guns from 1945. Very very easy to transform those into whatever late war year you want. There were supposedly 500-600 of these assembled, but most appear to be missing. They should probably be more common than they are, and IMO its very possible they were harvested for parts. Something similar happened to 1945 K98k infantry rifles that used long side rail receivers due to shortages. Most have been converted into fake snipers over the years.

But color me skeptical that you need a "full inventory" of "HK" made parts to construct a convincing fake. A few parts (frame, rear toggle, etc.) may be needed from donors, but most of the small stuff can probably be whatever. Bluing is trivial, as there have been many mechanics over the years who can expertly refinish stuff.

You just buy them on the open market. Donor pistols of all types (legit HK, the cigarette guns,etc) have been in country in very large quantities since 1945, as have tons of late Mauser spare parts, so not really a problem to acquire the material needed. You then remark and number what you need to. Its not that complicated.

At least based on Gibson's book, these pistols, including the 1945 trash, have been around since the 1970s at least.

There are 1945 turds in that book too. If I were you, I would stick to 1940 and earlier, pre-11300 serial range. HKs are still a mine field, but at least those actually existed.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Actually looked at your 2 comparisons for "PW 14" and do not see a match.
Not even close with the "4" being the most obvious.

Lets compare 14 to some early HK frames that use the normal font. Looks identical. Why were these SN dies instead of the 1941-1944 pattern? You don't have to answer, just noting the strangeness of it.

 

[RyanE]

By chance, I stumbled on the pics of 377. As I've said, looks real to me.

This is probably one of the last as overall workmanship is getting sloppy or was simply hurried. SN was misstamped on the frame or it was just mixed up. It also isn't fireproofed like the earlier ones, so was it possibly unfinished when the GIs and employees moved west? Parts also seem to have been running low. Breech block is salvaged from an early Mauser, and the rear toggle is a very interesting late war depot made part. Jt3 inspection appears to have come into use at HZa Ingolstadt around 1941 and seems to have been replaced sometime in 1944 or so. I would guess Ingolstadt was running low on spare P08 parts by 1943, so they made some of these rear toggles in house. Pretty cool.

I'm thinking the estimate from Krieghoff Jr. of 400-600 in Gibson still looks very reasonable. 400 or so numbered, and an unknown number of unnumbered ones put together early in the occupation before the whole business was organized.

So, where are the rest of the 200s and 300s?

 

[mhassoun]

I have updated the matrix to include the double serialization of sn 378/377.

 

[Mattkins73]

Here is Krieghoff PX Crown N 5115 with some Luftwaffe stamping. Notice how the Krieghoff Suhl is double stamped on the toggle. There are no more numbers in the upper or lower portions of the pistol. Oh, and it shoots 30 Luger.

 

[mhassoun]

Interesting Luger. The proof marks on the RHS of receiver are atypical of the HK PX, tho.

 

[Mattkins73]

Interesting Luger. The proof marks on the RHS of receiver are atypical of the HK PX, tho.

I know, according to Thomas Whiteman about half of the PX guns he has seen have a Krieghoff stamped toggles and stamps. I bought this from him in an auction about nine years ago.

 

[Mattkins73]

I know, according to Thomas Whiteman about half of the PX guns he has seen have a Krieghoff stamped toggles and stamps. I bought this from him in an auction about nine years ago.

Notice the grips too, They are plastic, not bakelite or another material.

 

[Mattkins73]

Here are two more photographs that may help to define what this Luger is: Just scroll and you'll see what I mean