[Jason S L]

Midnight snack time and cannot resist this.
Thanks for this quote.
Go enough rounds with an opponent and you learn their ways.

So is he totally wrong ?

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

I do not like to use terms with finality.

It ends the argument that these "trash" guns were used to make all the 1941- 1944 guns.
His own arguments on this angle of attack render it dismissible.

I am quite sure there will be yet another color change, but this line of attack is indeed dead.

 

[Jason S L]

I do not like to use terms with finality.

It ends the argument that these "trash" guns were used to make all the 1941- 1944 guns.
His own arguments on this angle of attack render it dismissible.

I am quite sure there will be yet another color change, but this line of attack is indeed dead.

I’m probably getting a little too deep here. But I think Ryan has a lot to offer. I am not as vested in the discussions as you are, but I know that he is a reasonable guy and has reached middle ground with other members on discussions . I don’t always agree with him, But he is super knowledgeable.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Do not disagree with this.
Also quite sure we will get another color change here.

I’m probably getting a little too deep here. But I think Ryan has a lot to offer. I don’t always agree with him, But he is super knowledgeable.

 

[RyanE]

It ends the argument that these "trash" guns were used to make all the 1941- 1944 guns.
His own arguments on this angle of attack render it dismissible.

I am quite sure there will be yet another color change, but this line of attack is indeed dead.

No idea what you are talking about.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

You ever ask "where are all the 200- 600 guns" or something similar?
You going to make a believable 1941- 1944 out of "trash" like 377 or is it 378?
You ever tell us how "easy" it would be to fake a 1941- 1944 gun out of these?
Your arguments, not mine.

No idea what you are talking about.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

To the OP
Sorry for mucking your thread up.
I have no real business here as my entire focus is "HK produced P.08's".
That of course means ALL HK parts.
Most of these seem to be mix-masters and of no interest to me.

Will say if you buy into the 377- 378 bit LOOK OUT.
If it only takes 1 HK part [maybe] to make one of these, you will have a real mess on your hands soon.

Important thing is it is obvious [ to me anyway] that these are not the foundation of the "all fake" 1941- 1944 guns.


To all
Never paid much attention to these other than seeing if they were all HK parts.
Will say there are at least 3 that are indeed "HK produced P.08's" out there.
Had that many in my paws over the years.
1 internal number and 2 external.
No pics or serials so feel free to question that statement.

That is.
1 more than 1941's
same as 1942's
one less than 1943's
same as 1944's
3 more than G dates and
3 more than 1945's.
Just talking in paws up close and personal looks.
To me that means a slightly higher survival rate than the wartime guns.

Only ever pawed 1 "G" date and it was well done BUT it really was a 1937 looking gun with a few "unusual" looking areas.

GOOD LUCK
Dave

 

[mhassoun]

Dave,
I appreciate your input. It is of value and it surely enriches the discussion here.
Mohamad

 

[heckinohio]

Here we go with 194 pictures.......maybe this will ad to the creditability. The two I have are identical as best I can tell. I would hazard a guess that if either were faked, it would certainly not be a book-end of the other.

Apparently the camera focused on my hand......I am not a picture taker.

PJH

 

[mhassoun]

Here we go with 194 pictures.......maybe this will ad to the creditability. The two I have are identical as best I can tell. I would hazard a guess that if either were faked, it would certainly not be a book-end of the other.

Apparently the camera focused on my hand......I am not a picture taker.

PJH

Thanks! Picture of sn added to matrix.

 

[RyanE]

Here we go with 194 pictures.......maybe this will ad to the creditability. The two I have are identical as best I can tell. I would hazard a guess that if either were faked, it would certainly not be a book-end of the other.

Legit IMO. And very nice.

Can you take a closeup or describe the circular mark on the frame? Looks like a Circle A but I can't tell for sure.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Hey PJ,
Very interesting gun.
I know you have some HK military guns and am wondering how they compare to this example.
Pic of the right rear frame ear or better both would be great.
Barrel markings?
Bluing on barrel thin?
Same stamp do all serials?

Definitely know there are real ones of these and this sure has hope

Send me a pm if interested as I am really curious about this.

 

[heckinohio]

(Failed to post this at 9am .....just now found it again, 6pm here now)

OK.....Donna is off to pick berrys.......I hit a hornet's nest yesterday. They swarmed me but I only got one bite in front of my right ear. They have signed their own death warrant. Ag Sprayer with bug stuff and a long distance wasp sprayer.

I have S and 1936 Kriegs, two #10000 commercials (another for sale out west somewhere), and one early commercial #1137. Can't think of any others.

Picts irritated me so I took some more, let's see how these came out. I am not sure that the pale blue background is not a problem. I have a red cloth, but no green.

PJH

 

[Jason S L]

I really like those a lot

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

X2
Looks to me they did some polishing-finishing on these. Not just thrown together.
REALLY LIKE IN HAND with these. Road trip maybe???
When you stop learning- you start dying.

I really like those a lot

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Thanks a bunch PJ,
Fascinating stuff!
Looks to me Franks gun has a leftover late E2 accepted frame.
194 with the odd circle proof does not look like an HK frame.
Most noticeable above takedown lever.
Sure, look like HK sporting arms quality work to me.
Almost a little 1937 Ish.
No war anymore.

Gibson mentions "several " former employees were let into the factory under guard to assemble pistols for the American's.
Seeing these examples, it looks to me that it is possible these "several" employees were the same ones assembling the 1941-1944 guns.
Definitely took more care polishing some areas on these as they were looking to please new "customers". Bluing looks typical HK to me also.

Another interesting point is it seems there is evidence that HK did indeed have their own E2 stamps for P.08's.
Always suspected that as the serials, barrel gauges, dates and proofing were TERRIBLE all along.

JMHO of course and "in hand" with these would be fantastic

 

[mhassoun]

(Failed to post this at 9am .....just now found it again, 6pm here now)

OK.....Donna is off to pick berrys.......I hit a hornet's nest yesterday. They swarmed me but I only got one bite in front of my right ear. They have signed their own death warrant. Ag Sprayer with bug stuff and a long distance wasp sprayer.

I have S and 1936 Kriegs, two #10000 commercials (another for sale out west somewhere), and one early commercial #1137. Can't think of any others.

Picts irritated me so I took some more, let's see how these came out. I am not sure that the pale blue background is not a problem. I have a red cloth, but no green.

PJH

View attachment 718534 View attachment 718535 View attachment 718536 View attachment 718537 View attachment 718538 View attachment 718539

This sort of "refined" machining/finish on #138 & 194 is also a characteristic of HK PX #96 (Sinatra-Grade PX guns?!); but it is not necessarily characteristic of some other HK PX guns in the database. 👇

 

[RyanE]

194 with the odd circle proof does not look like an HK frame.

The Circle A (I am pretty sure that's what it is) is a rejection stamp, probably early (1936-37) since it is not included in the later BAL service manual. 'A' is probably for Ausgesondert. The BAL was a carbon copy of the WaA, and this stamp is likely a hold-over from the HWA regs.

So its an earlier rejected frame. I'll note again that the "star" found on some of the commercial guns is not a BAL rejection.

Note 200 has what appears to be the same Circle A.

Another interesting point is it seems there is evidence that HK did indeed have their own E2 stamps for P.08's.
Always suspected that as the serials, barrel gauges, dates and proofing were TERRIBLE all along.

No, absolutely not. Under no circumstances were employees allowed access to those stamps. From the reg:

"Acceptance by a BAL member shall always be carried out in the presence of a member of the Works Inspectorate, and only those parts may be submitted for acceptance which have a visual mark or a certificate from the Works Inspectorate indicating that the item is free from defects.
Workers who withhold errors or incorrect entries on acceptance certificates or the like are guilty of sabotage.
Parts with harmless defects, which do not exclude their use, are to be presented separately to BAL according to the specially agreed labeling. In this case, the BAL has to decide on the usability.
Accepted raw materials, workpieces and devices or their test certificates are provided with the official acceptance stamp or a seal as a sign of recognized acceptance. The acceptance stamps are shown in illustrations no. 101 ff., P. 31 ff. Lending manufacturing inspection stamps to factory employees for stamping is prohibited.
Individual parts are to be stamped in such a way that the stamps remain visible even when the piece is assembled."

The stamps indicated that the Luftwaffe had inspected and accepted those parts. Factory employees were not allowed to do this. It would obligate the Luftwaffe to pay for those parts and would circumvent the Luftwaffe's control over the manufacturing process, which was the whole point of the operation.

The BAL could authorize factory employees to accept some things (almost always less important stuff), but these Lizenzprüfer were issued a license (Betreibsabnahme-Lizenz) along with special stamps that included their license number. They were also restricted to only those parts the BAL authorized them to inspect.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Not interested in running anymore circles with you.
The frame in 194 is not an HK produced frame.
Now that I am actually paying attention to these it seems some other parts were used on some.
194 is after all a pretty late one.

What authority did your "BAL" have after the war?
Seems the markings are under the blue.
I do not think the "several" employees let back in under guard would have brought a BAL inspector with them.

So its an earlier rejected frame. I'll note again that the "star" found on some of the commercial guns is not a BAL rejection.



No, absolutely not. Under no circumstances were employees allowed access to those stamps.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Maybe some culling?

This sort of "refined" machining/finish on #138 & 194 is also a characteristic of HK PX #96 (Sinatra-Grade PX guns?!); but it is not necessarily characteristic of some other HK PX guns in the database. 👇

View attachment 718649
View attachment 718650