Wow. This is excellent. Thank you @Snoodoubts

 

Your quite welcome. I’ve been into WW1/2 history for decades but my Luger obsession is taking it to a entirely new level. Research can be fun!

 

Rich,
That is an excellent reference/resource, thank you for posting it!
Ron

 

You’re welcome.

 

I see some markings that I don't agree with the nomenclature for a few
Ignoring the obvious usage of "proof' and sometimes acceptance - many are not proofs.
MY replies in BOLD

Explain these:

WaffenAmt Receiver Proof
Mauser/Simson reworks - 1926-1933
Prove that this is for mauser / simson reworks

Simson Final Proof
Reworks - 1924-1934
Why put the word rework in this?

Arsenal Proof for repair, refurbish, or modification (left - Erfurt, right - DWM
Kinda correct, but not really -- Where is the Eagle 6 RC

Bohler Steel Barrel Proof
digits are grade of hardness
NOT a proof

Polizeischule Technik und Verkehr Rework Proof
Reworked during 1927-34
Is this always a rework? NO

Receiver Proof
Simpson reworks - mid to late 1920s
How many times have folks told me its NOT a Simson (circle S)
- and learn to spell

ALSO EAGLE L, F and C
contract Purchase Proof
Police, postal, etc.
WTH - please someone show me that the postal fell under Police Acceptance?

 

 

The publisher clearly states at the top of the page, proof/acceptance.

Not sure where you’re going with this but he left a contact email on that page you might consider using.

 

well, I'm going down the assorted parts and, that although this is really good, it has inaccuracies and simply Wrong information. What is the difference in an acceptance and a proof? Many of these are one or the other.

No offense, but we have been here for almost 20 years - have you gone through the many reference pages we have?

 

well, I'm going down the assorted parts and, that although this is really good, it has inaccuracies and simply Wrong information. What is the difference in an acceptance and a proof? Many of these are one or the other.

No offense, but we have been here for almost 20 years - have you gone through the many reference pages we have?

I use any reference material I can find. If you see discrepancies with with the other site, he has a email.

 

I have made this discussion a sticky since the photographic references and subsequent discussion are useful.

Every die stamp is not a "proof" mark. Many are used for a variety of purposes. Some are related to contract acceptance. Others involve inspection of the firearm at various levels (manufacturing steps, contract acceptance, proof firing). Some identify specific component origin, or the composition of parts like the origin of the steel.

At worse, the marks are used to deceive by those that would fake a firearm's origin, provenance or rarity. One of the great values of this forum is that the history, origin and characteristics of a collectible firearm can be discussed by a community of collectors with both historic evidence and educated opinion clearly brought to light.

One of the most experienced historians and collectors I have known taught me to judge true historic documentation and evidence carefully, and also to carefully consider what I believe based on my experience and judgement versus what I can prove from historic documentation.

 

This is fascinating, I was thinking to myself when reading the document “ wow , was this fact checked ? “
Then scrolled down and saw all the replies . You folks are amazing, this group is really the best . Thank you all, I am going to study this further with Ryan and Ed’s insight and any others who add to the discussion. Thanks !!

 

I have never seen a Swiss acceptance mark N/+ and never heard of a Captain Nievergelt (the name sounds more Dutch than German to me - may be Vlim knows more about him...).

There was Major Vogelsang (V/+) until 1912 and then Major, later Colonel Mühlemann (M/+) until 1942. In 1942 Captain Hauri (H/+) was responsible for the acceptance (for a very short time). After that, the acceptance mark was no longer personalized.

So, who is Captain Nievergelt?

Alexander

 

Lol. Sorry, not Dutch either.

 

Thank you Ryan and Ed, I actually printed that page out a long time ago and stuck it in a three ring binder. Looks like I need to dig it out and add some notes.

Seriously I am still in disbelief of how knowledgeable this community is.

 

it's only touching the top of the Matterhorn of knowledge here.

When starting with Lugers, I recommend studying before buying guns. There are a huge number of variations, and many markings to become familiar with, as well as many markings. The more rare a Luger, the more opportunity for fraud and fakery.

The Goeff Sturgess and Joachim Goertz book on the Borchardt and Luger Automatic Pistols continues to amaze me as one of the most thoroughly researched historically documented study of any single topic. It's expensive and worth every pfennig.

 

it's only touching the top of the Matterhorn of knowledge here.

When starting with Lugers, I recommend studying before buying guns. There are a huge number of variations, and many markings to become familiar with, as well as many markings. The more rare a Luger, the more opportunity for fraud and fakery.

The Goeff Sturgess and Joachim Goertz book on the Borchardt and Luger Automatic Pistols continues to amaze me as one of the most thoroughly researched historically documented study of any single topic. It's expensive and worth every pfennig.

So far I've only picked up cheap/common DWM's. After joining here I am glad I haven't purchased the ones I really want because I now know I don't know enough to make those purchases.

 

A side note. W+F Bern started marking the parts with the steel type used on the 06/29 pistols. This has been the source of some confusion also.

We first published an overview of steel types used in nazi era Mausers, Swiss 06/29 and postwar Parabellum pistols in the book 'The Parabellum Is Back! 1945-2000'.

Sturgess missed some Swiss detail info in his first 'green' edition. He corrected this in the 'red' edition.

The lesson is that there is not one good universal source of information. The information is out there, but scattered all over the place.

 

I wrote to the publisher of the page I provided and received this reply.

Hi Rich,

I would be happy to address any concerns and any corrections/update to the reference would be greatly appreciated. The information in the reference page comes from "Luger Variations", "Lugers at Random", and "The Luger Book". Take care,

Vern

 

Here are my comments on the Swiss Lugers - you can forward them accordingly if you like.

• I have already commented on the Swiss acceptance marks (see above).
• The Swiss cross is not a "Swiss Shooting-in Proof" but an acceptance mark.
• The term "Berner Probe" does not exist - the correct term is "Beschusspropbe."
• The privatization P do not differ according to the different Luger models. If there are differences, they are likely to differ according to the place and time of privatization. Anyway I don't think that's an important point.
• The Lugers with the toggle mark "Waffenfabrik Bern" were produced between 1919 and 1933 (not 1924-29) and those with the Swiss coat of arms as toggle mark from 1933.
• The "cross in sunburst" above the chamber was used from 1901 to 1908 and was replaced by the "cross in shield" from 1909 (until 1914).
• Regarding the magazines: the "Swiss Metal Insert Wood Bottom" was used from 1901 to 1914.

Basically I think, such websites only make sense, if the creator understands something of the topic and also consults the current literature (nobody knows everything himself...).

Alexander

 

I have a question. WW2 Small Arms Identification Gallery confuses me a bit...

Is Crown N ( C/N ) proof mark for Commercial Proof 1908-1914 Luger models same as the proof mark for Commercial Nitro Proof Lugers produced after 1920?

Bit confusing... At least to newb like me trying to get first genuine Luger P08.

If they ain't the same what are the differences? I can't see any

Thanks!

 

I have a question. WW2 Small Arms Identification Gallery confuses me a bit...

Is Crown N ( C/N ) proof mark for Commercial Proof 1908-1914 Luger models same as the proof mark for Commercial Nitro Proof Lugers produced after 1920?

Bit confusing... At least to newb like me trying to get first genuine Luger P08. If they ain't the same what are the differences? I can't see any Thanks!

The difference is in the orientation of the stamp. The pre-WW1 commercial crown/N is lying down (lazy) on it's side. Post WW1 Crown/N commercial stamps are upright/vertical. Their orientation on the left side of the receiver identifies the period in which the Luger was made. While the C/N was applied only to Lugers made for the commercial market, there are examples that also bear military or police markings as the pistols were pressed into service.

 

Thanks Guys,

This is just crazy... I will try to summarize main characteristics of this appearing C/N proof mark pattern. Please add or advise if something ain't right.

Crown N (C/N) Proof mark has "Lazy" & "Upright style". There are no difference in font style and size.

Pre WWI editions with Lazy C/N are usually located on the receiver's left side and Lazy C/N on the left side of the second toggle link(also possible on the front toggle).

Post WWI editions with Upright C/N are usually located on the receiver's left side and Lazy C/N on the left side of the second toggle link (possible front toggle).

1930's Lazy C/N reappearance with double placement on the left frame and receiver side without placement on the toggle links.

It seems that Commercial C/N Proof mark Luger pistols that were not in government service follows repetitive C/N and serial number location pattern while Police/Military rework versions of same pistols could be with mixed C/N appearing patterns plus with added other different style of stamps and serial number marks on place they wouldn't usually be located?

 

There is a difference between the pre-war lazy C/N proof and that used by the Suhl proof house on commercial Krieghoff Lugers in the 1930's. The Suhl crown base is narrower, making it a slightly different design.

 

Happy Easter to everyone!
It would be really interesting to know the real difference "under the loop". We would need someone with old & new letter style and very good macro photo... Maybe you Mr.Doubs?
It would not be bad idea to measure dimensions on pistol with calipers(of course as accurately as our eyes allows). I think I found somewhere googling and lurking around on the web that dimensions of common old style Crown N measured mark on pistol are approx 4.3mm total height and about 2.3mm width... If so I presume that probably original punch stamp for old style is 4x2mm (sorry I would post in inches but I am only familiar with metric system) which of course is also logical that at certain point during "punching exploitation" would somehow flatten and make stamp bit wider(and bit warn of course). So I think if lets say 4x2mm are original dimensions of punch stamp of old style Crown N during usage it could grow up to 0.2 maybe even 0.3mm in dimensions and of course since it could be worn at certain point it could give somewhat different/irregular Crown/N projection on steel than it gave in first lets say 50 hits...

Here is also one important question: How many hits can original Crown/N or any other daily used punch mark take during exploitation until change to new one? Or how to say in other way..." Punch stamp tolerance"?

And even more interesting question... Hammer strike vs Press tool pressed? Wouldn't be easier to proof house to have some receiver and barrel "vice style" molds and Pressed stamp marks instead of hammer stroked?

If we would have known mentioned data than lets say(just for an example of course) that mentioned Suhl used Press tool instead of Hammer that should eliminate any double stamped on Krieghoff Lugers as genuine one(every proof mark not just C/N) cause press tool would leave more uniform patterns on same location (barrel, receiver held in "vice style" molds).

There are certain numbers of double stamped and over stamped Lugers(I don't know "7 over 3" serial number) so while it is possible that "hammer operator" was under the "Schnaps" influence it is less likely to happen.

 

On toggle marks, I heard 2nd hand that byf was Mauser factory at Bayern/ Munich . SO my questions are #1 this true if not how did byf get selected as the mark ? what does it mean

 

byf is just a random code assigned to Mauser. (Not in Bavaria, Münich either).

The whole idea of the random 3-letter codes was to obscure the real manufacturers. It worked well.

Do not put too much value or meaning on the shape, size and placement of commercial proofs. The only thing required by law was the fact that a gun passed a nitrocellulose powder pressure proof. The placement and style are meaningless from a legal perspective and only offer clues to the timeframe and site where they were applied.

Some things should not be over-analyzed as it just leads to more confusion.

 

So they were all made in Obendorf?

 

Yes. All Mauser P08 pistols were made in Oberndorf am Neckar. After the 2nd world war a small series was assembled from parts in France.

Mauser rifles were built at several locations, but the P08 only in one location, which still stands today, actually.

 

Ok, I just re-read this. We did a giant disservice to snoodoubts. He brought something forward he found great and we pooped on his parade.
It has lots of good info and I print'd a pdf'd it.

My apologies for being abrupt, it really is good info, just use it as a guide for checking stuff and fact check. The books the website used were made 50+ years ago.

The pictures collected as examples is outstanding, must have taken weeks, even months of work.

Ed

EDITED _ I came across this pdf on main gunboards. I am sure there are wrong makers, but its a heck of a list.

 

If you want to have the best Ordnance Code guide available, buy a copy of Michael Heidler's book.

A nice extra is the red cover reprint of an original German code book.

 

Vlim,
Where could I purchase this book? I took a quick tour of the web and couldn't find it. Thank you.
jimmiej

 

Vlim,
Where could I purchase this book? I took a quick tour of the web and couldn't find it. Thank you.
jimmiej

I believe this is the author,

New book: German secret armament codes until 1945 !! Free shipping !! | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for New book: German secret armament codes until 1945 !! Free shipping !! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

This is the official website:

https://vsmedien-shop.de/visier/visier-edition/6852/visier-edition-deutsche-fertigungskennzeichen-bis-1945-4.-korrigierte-und-ergaenzte-aufl

.

 

It took a month but Michael Heidler’s book arrived from Germany . It shipped from his house 😊

we are giving away a copy of the red Liste on Zoom , 1/14

 

Thank you for the link!